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Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 9 2015, 20:50:53     : Ïóòèí

http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50380
Èíòåðâüþ àìåðèêàíñêîìó æóðíàëèñòó ×àðëè Ðîóçó äëÿ òåëåêàíàëîâ CBS è PBS

 ïðåääâåðèè ñâîåãî ó÷àñòèÿ â þáèëåéíîé, 70-é ñåññèè Ãåíåðàëüíîé Àññàìáëåè ÎÎÍ â Íüþ-Éîðêå Âëàäèìèð Ïóòèí äàë èíòåðâüþ àìåðèêàíñêîìó æóðíàëèñòó ×àðëè Ðîóçó.
29 ñåíòÿáðÿ 2015 ãîäà
06:00
Ìîñêîâñêàÿ îáëàñòü, Íîâî-Îãàð¸âî
Èíòåðâüþ àìåðèêàíñêîìó æóðíàëèñòó ×àðëè Ðîóçó äëÿ òåëåêàíàëîâ CBS è PBS.
Èíòåðâüþ àìåðèêàíñêîìó æóðíàëèñòó ×àðëè Ðîóçó äëÿ òåëåêàíàëîâ CBS è PBS.
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Èíòåðâüþ àìåðèêàíñêîìó æóðíàëèñòó ×àðëè Ðîóçó äëÿ òåëåêàíàëîâ CBS è PBS.

×.Ðîóç: Ìíå áû õîòåëîñü ïîáëàãîäàðèòü Âàñ çà òî, ÷òî Âû ïðèãëàñèëè íàñ ñþäà, ê Âàì äîìîé, â ýòîò ÷óäåñíûé äåíü. Âû çäåñü íàçûâàåòå ýòî «áàáüèì ëåòîì». Ìû áóäåì çàïèñûâàòü íàøå èíòåðâüþ, îíî âûéäåò â ýôèð â âîñêðåñåíüå, à íà ñëåäóþùèé äåíü Âû âûñòóïèòå â ÎÎÍ ñ ðå÷üþ, êîòîðóþ ñèëüíî æäóò. Âû áóäåòå âûñòóïàòü â ÎÎÍ âïåðâûå çà ìíîãî ëåò. ×òî Âû ñêàæåòå â ÎÎÍ, Àìåðèêå, âñåìó ìèðó?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ïîñêîëüêó íàøå èíòåðâüþ âûéäåò ïåðåä ìîèì âûñòóïëåíèåì, òî ìíå êàæåòñÿ, áûëî áû íåöåëåñîîáðàçíî ïîäðîáíî èçëàãàòü âñ¸, ÷òî ÿ ñîáèðàþñü ñêàçàòü, íî â îáùèõ ÷åðòàõ, êîíå÷íî, ÿ âñïîìíþ è îá èñòîðèè Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé. Óæå ñåé÷àñ ìîãó ñêàçàòü î òîì, ÷òî ðåøåíèå î ñîçäàíèè ÎÎÍ áûëî ïðèíÿòî êàê ðàç â íàøåé ñòðàíå, â Ñîâåòñêîì Ñîþçå, íà ßëòèíñêîé êîíôåðåíöèè. Ñîâåòñêèé Ñîþç è Ðîññèÿ, êàê ïðàâîïðååìíèöà Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà, ÿâëÿåòñÿ ñòðàíîé – ó÷ðåäèòåëüíèöåé Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé è ïîñòîÿííûì ÷ëåíîì Ñîâåòà Áåçîïàñíîñòè.

Êîíå÷íî, íóæíî áóäåò ñêàçàòü î äíå ñåãîäíÿøíåì, î òîì, êàê ñêëàäûâàåòñÿ ìåæäóíàðîäíàÿ æèçíü ñåãîäíÿ, î òîì, ÷òî ÎÎÍ îñòà¸òñÿ åäèíñòâåííîé óíèâåðñàëüíîé ìåæäóíàðîäíîé îðãàíèçàöèåé, êîòîðàÿ ïðèçâàíà ïîääåðæèâàòü ìèð âî âñ¸ì ìèðå. È â ýòîì ñìûñëå ó íå¸ íåò íèêàêîé àëüòåðíàòèâû ñåãîäíÿ.

ßñíî òàêæå, ÷òî îíà äîëæíà ïðèñïîñàáëèâàòüñÿ ê èçìåíÿþùåìóñÿ ìèðó, è ìû âñå ïîñòîÿííî äèñêóòèðóåì íà ýòîò ñ÷¸ò: êàê îíà äîëæíà ìåíÿòüñÿ, êàêèìè òåìïàìè, ÷òî êà÷åñòâåííî äîëæíî èçìåíèòüñÿ.

Ðàçóìååòñÿ, ïðèä¸òñÿ ñêàçàòü, è äàæå íå òî ÷òî ïðèä¸òñÿ, – íóæíî áóäåò âîñïîëüçîâàòüñÿ ýòîé òðèáóíîé ìåæäóíàðîäíîé, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû äàòü ðîññèéñêîå âèäåíèå ñåãîäíÿøíèõ ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ îòíîøåíèé è áóäóùåãî ýòîé îðãàíèçàöèè è ìèðîâîãî ñîîáùåñòâà.

×.Ðîóç: Ìû îæèäàåì, ÷òî Âû áóäåòå ãîâîðèòü îá óãðîçå «Èñëàìñêîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà» è î âàøåì ïðèñóòñòâèè â Ñèðèè, âåäü âàøå ïðèñóòñòâèå òàì ñâÿçàíî ñ ýòèì. Êàêîâà âàøà öåëü ïðèñóòñòâèÿ â Ñèðèè, è êàê ýòî îòíîñèòñÿ ê áîðüáå ñ ÈÃÈË?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß äóìàþ, ïðîñòî íå ñîìíåâàþñü, ÷òî î ïðîáëåìå áîðüáû, î íåîáõîäèìîñòè áîðüáû ñ òåððîðèçìîì áóäóò ãîâîðèòü ïðàêòè÷åñêè âñå âûñòóïàþùèå ñ òðèáóíû Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé, è ìíå òîæå íå óéòè îò ýòîé òåìû. Ýòî åñòåñòâåííî, ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî ñåðü¸çíàÿ îáùàÿ óãðîçà äëÿ âñåõ íàñ, ýòî âûçîâ äëÿ âñåõ íàñ. Ñåãîäíÿ òåððîðèçì ïðåäñòàâëÿåò èç ñåáÿ óãðîçó äëÿ î÷åíü ìíîãèõ ãîñóäàðñòâ ìèðà, îò åãî äåÿíèé ïðåñòóïíûõ ñòðàäàåò áîëüøîå êîëè÷åñòâî ëþäåé – ñîòíè òûñÿ÷, ìèëëèîíû ëþäåé. È ïåðåä âñåìè íàìè ñòîèò çàäà÷à – îáúåäèíèòü óñèëèÿ â áîðüáå ñ ýòèì îáùèì çëîì.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ íàøåãî, êàê Âû ñêàçàëè, ïðèñóòñòâèÿ â Ñèðèè, òî îíî âûðàæàåòñÿ íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü â ïîñòàâêàõ îðóæèÿ ñèðèéñêîìó ïðàâèòåëüñòâó, â îáó÷åíèè ïåðñîíàëà, â îêàçàíèè ãóìàíèòàðíîé ïîìîùè ñèðèéñêîìó íàðîäó.

Ìû èñõîäèì èç Óñòàâà Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé, òî åñòü èç îñíîâîïîëàãàþùèõ ïðèíöèïîâ ñîâðåìåííîãî ìåæäóíàðîäíîãî ïðàâà, ñîãëàñíî êîòîðîìó ïîìîùü, òà èëè èíàÿ, â òîì ÷èñëå è âîåííàÿ ïîìîùü, ìîæåò è äîëæíà îêàçûâàòüñÿ èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî ëåãèòèìíûì ïðàâèòåëüñòâàì òåõ èëè èíûõ ñòðàí, ñ èõ ñîãëàñèÿ èëè ïî èõ ïðîñüáå, ëèáî ïî ðåøåíèþ Ñîâåòà Áåçîïàñíîñòè Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé.

 äàííîì ñëó÷àå ìû èìååì äåëî ñ ïðîñüáîé ñèðèéñêîãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà îá îêàçàíèè èì âîåííî-òåõíè÷åñêîé ïîìîùè, ÷òî ìû è äåëàåì â ðàìêàõ àáñîëþòíî ëåãàëüíûõ ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ êîíòðàêòîâ.

×.Ðîóç: Ãîññåêðåòàðü Äæîí Êåððè ñêàçàë, ÷òî îí ïðèâåòñòâóåò Âàøó ïîääåðæêó â áîðüáå ñ ÈÃÈË. Äðóãèå ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî ýòî áîåâûå ñàìîë¸òû è ñèñòåìû ÏÇÐÊ, êîòîðûå èñïîëüçóþòñÿ ïðîòèâ îáû÷íîé àðìèè, à íå ïðîòèâ ýêñòðåìèñòîâ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Òàì åñòü òîëüêî îäíà îáû÷íàÿ ëåãèòèìíàÿ àðìèÿ. Ýòî àðìèÿ Ïðåçèäåíòà Ñèðèè Àñàäà. È åìó ïðîòèâîñòîèò, ïî èíòåðïðåòàöèè íåêîòîðûõ íàøèõ ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ ïàðòí¸ðîâ, îïïîçèöèÿ. Íî íà ñàìîì äåëå, â æèçíè, ðåàëüíî, àðìèÿ Àñàäà áîðåòñÿ ñ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè îðãàíèçàöèÿìè.

Âû æå ëó÷øå ìåíÿ çíàåòå î ñëóøàíèÿõ, êîòîðûå òîëüêî ÷òî ïðîøëè â ñåíàòå, åñëè ÿ íå îøèáàþñü, Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, ãäå âîåííûå, ïðåäñòàâèòåëè Ïåíòàãîíà, îò÷èòûâàëèñü ïåðåä ñåíàòîðàìè î òîì, ÷òî ñäåëàíî Ñîåäèí¸ííûìè Øòàòàìè äëÿ ïîäãîòîâêè áîåâîé ÷àñòè îïïîçèöèîííûõ ñèë. Ñòàâèëàñü öåëü ñíà÷àëà ïîäãîòîâèòü 5–6 òûñÿ÷ áîéöîâ, ïîòîì – 12 òûñÿ÷.  ðåçóëüòàòå âûÿñíèëîñü, ÷òî ïîäãîòîâëåíî âñåãî øåñòüäåñÿò [÷åëîâåê], à ñ îðóæèåì â ðóêàõ áîðþòñÿ òîëüêî ÷åòûðå èëè ïÿòü ÷åëîâåê, à âñå îñòàëüíûå ïðîñòî ïåðåáåæàëè, ñ àìåðèêàíñêèì îðóæèåì ïåðåáåæàëè â ÈÃÈË. Ýòî âî‑ïåðâûõ.

Âî‑âòîðûõ, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, îêàçàíèå âîåííîé ïîääåðæêè íåëåãèòèìíûì ñòðóêòóðàì íå îòâå÷àåò ïðèíöèïàì ñîâðåìåííîãî ìåæäóíàðîäíîãî ïðàâà è Óñòàâó Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé. Ìû ïîääåðæèâàåì èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî ëåãàëüíûå ïðàâèòåëüñòâåííûå ñòðóêòóðû.

 ýòîé ñâÿçè ìû ïðåäëàãàåì ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâî è ñòðàíàì ðåãèîíà, ìû ïûòàåìñÿ ñîçäàòü íåêóþ êîîðäèíàöèîííóþ ñòðóêòóðó. ß ëè÷íî ïðîèíôîðìèðîâàë îá ýòîì è Ïðåçèäåíòà Òóðöèè, Êîðîëÿ Èîðäàíèè, Ñàóäîâñêóþ Àðàâèþ, ìû ïðîèíôîðìèðîâàëè îá ýòîì è Ñîåäèí¸ííûå Øòàòû Àìåðèêè, ãîñïîäèí Êåððè, î êîòîðîì Âû óïîìÿíóëè, èìåë îáñòîÿòåëüíóþ áåñåäó íà ýòîò ñ÷¸ò ñ íàøèì Ìèíèñòðîì èíîñòðàííûõ äåë ãîñïîäèíîì Ëàâðîâûì, íó è âîåííûå íàøè â êîíòàêòå ìåæäó ñîáîé îáñóæäàþò ýòó òåìó. Ìû áóäåì ðàäû, åñëè ìû íàéä¸ì îáùóþ ïëàòôîðìó äëÿ ñîâìåñòíûõ äåéñòâèé ïðîòèâ òåððîðèñòîâ.

×.Ðîóç: Âû ãîòîâû ïðèñîåäèíèòüñÿ ê ÑØÀ â áîðüáå ïðîòèâ ÈÃÈË, è ïîýòîìó âû íàõîäèòåñü â Ñèðèè? Íåêîòîðûå ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî âàøà öåëü îò÷àñòè çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â òîì, ÷òîáû ñîõðàíèòü àäìèíèñòðàöèþ Àñàäà, âåäü ñåé÷àñ îí òåðÿåò ñâîè ïîçèöèè, è äëÿ åãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà âîéíà èä¸ò íå î÷åíü õîðîøî. ßâëÿåòñÿ ëè ñîõðàíåíèå Áàøàðà Àñàäà ó âëàñòè öåëüþ ïðèñóòñòâèÿ Ðîññèè â Ñèðèè?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ïðàâèëüíî, òàê è åñòü. Ìû îêàçûâàåì – ÿ óæå ýòî ñêàçàë äâàæäû â õîäå íàøåé áåñåäû, ìîãó ïîâòîðèòü â òðåòèé ðàç – ìû îêàçûâàåì ïîääåðæêó ëåãèòèìíûì âëàñòÿì Ñèðèè. Áîëåå òîãî, ïî ìîåìó ãëóáîêîìó óáåæäåíèþ, äåéñòâóÿ â äðóãîì íàïðàâëåíèè, â íàïðàâëåíèè ðàçðóøåíèÿ ëåãèòèìíûõ ñòðóêòóð âëàñòè, ìû ìîæåì ñîçäàòü ñèòóàöèþ, êîòîðóþ ñåãîäíÿ íàáëþäàåì â äðóãèõ ñòðàíàõ ðåãèîíà ëèáî â äðóãèõ ðåãèîíàõ ìèðà, íàïðèìåð, â Ëèâèè, ãäå ïîëíîñòüþ äåçèíòåãðèðîâàíû âñå ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå èíñòèòóòû.

Ìû íàáëþäàåì ïîõîæóþ ñèòóàöèþ, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, è â Èðàêå. Íåò íèêàêîãî äðóãîãî ñïîñîáà ðåøåíèÿ ñèðèéñêîé ïðîáëåìû, êðîìå êàê óêðåïëåíèå äåéñòâóþùèõ ëåãàëüíûõ ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ ñòðóêòóð, îêàçàíèå èì ïîìîùè â áîðüáå ñ òåððîðèçìîì, íî è, êîíå÷íî, ïîáóæäåíèå èõ â òî æå ñàìîå âðåìÿ ê ïîçèòèâíîìó äèàëîãó ñî çäîðîâîé ÷àñòüþ îïïîçèöèè è ê ïðîâåäåíèþ ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ ïðåîáðàçîâàíèé.

×.Ðîóç: Êàê Âû çíàåòå, íåêîòîðûå èç ïàðòí¸ðîâ ïî êîàëèöèè õîòÿò, ÷òîáû ñíà÷àëà Àñàä îòêàçàëñÿ îò âëàñòè, è ëèøü ïîñëå ýòîãî îíè áóäóò ãîòîâû ïîääåðæèâàòü ïðàâèòåëüñòâî.

Â.Ïóòèí: ß áû õîòåë èì ïîñîâåòîâàòü èëè ðåêîìåíäîâàòü íàïðàâèòü ýòî ïîæåëàíèå ñèðèéñêîìó íàðîäó, à íå ñàìîìó Àñàäó. Òîëüêî ñèðèéñêèé íàðîä âíóòðè ñòðàíû âïðàâå ðåøàòü, êòî è êàê è ïî êàêèì ïðèíöèïàì äîëæåí óïðàâëÿòü ñòðàíîé. Ñîâåòû ïîäîáíîãî ðîäà ñî ñòîðîíû ÿ ñ÷èòàþ àáñîëþòíî íåóìåñòíûìè, âðåäíûìè è ïðîòèâîðå÷àùèìè ìåæäóíàðîäíîìó ïðàâó.

×.Ðîóç: Âû ïîääåðæèâàåòå Áàøàðà Àñàäà. À ïîääåðæèâàåòå ëè Âû òî, ÷òî îí äåëàåò â Ñèðèè è òî, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò ñ òåìè ñèðèéöàìè, ìèëëèîíàìè áåæåíöåâ, ñ ñîòíÿìè òûñÿ÷ ëþäåé, êîòîðûå ïîãèáëè, è ìíîãèå èç íèõ áûëè óáèòû åãî ëþäüìè?

Â.Ïóòèí: À êàê Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ïðàâèëüíî ëè ïîñòóïàþò òå, êòî ïîääåðæèâàåò âîîðóæ¸ííóþ îïïîçèöèþ è, ãëàâíûå îáðàçîì, òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèå îðãàíèçàöèè òîëüêî äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ñâåðãíóòü Àñàäà, íå çàáîòÿñü î òîì, ÷òî áóäåò ñî ñòðàíîé ïîñëå ïîëíîãî óíè÷òîæåíèÿ ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ èíñòèòóòîâ â ýòîé ñòðàíå?

Ìû óæå ïðîõîäèëè ýòî, ÿ óæå óïîìèíàë Ëèâèþ. Òîëüêî ÷òî, ñîâñåì íåäàâíî ýòî áûëî. Ñîåäèí¸ííûå Øòàòû àêòèâíî ïîìîãàëè ðàçðóøàòü ýòè ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå èíñòèòóòû. Õîðîøèå îíè áûëè èëè ïëîõèå – ýòî äðóãîå äåëî. Íî îíè ðàçðóøåíû, ïîñëå ýòîãî Ñîåäèí¸ííûå Øòàòû ïîíåñëè òÿæ¸ëûå óòðàòû, â òîì ÷èñëå è ãèáåëü ñâîåãî ïîñëà. Ïîíèìàåòå, ê ÷åìó ýòî ïðèâîäèò?

Ïîýòîìó ìû ïîìîãàåì èìåííî ãîñóäàðñòâåííûì ëåãàëüíûì ñòðóêòóðàì, íî, ÿ õî÷ó ïîä÷åðêíóòü ýòî åù¸ ðàç, â íàäåæäå íà òî, ÷òî â Ñèðèè áóäóò ïðîâîäèòüñÿ íåîáõîäèìûå äëÿ ñèðèéñêîãî íàðîäà ïîëèòè÷åñêèå ïðåîáðàçîâàíèÿ.

Âû âñ¸ âðåìÿ, íåîäíîêðàòíî, ñ íàñòîé÷èâîñòüþ, êîòîðàÿ äîñòîéíà ëó÷øåãî ïðèìåíåíèÿ, ãîâîðèòå î òîì, ÷òî ñèðèéñêàÿ àðìèÿ áîðåòñÿ ñî ñâîèì íàðîäîì. Íî Âû ïîñìîòðèòå, êòî êîíòðîëèðóåò 60 ïðîöåíòîâ òåððèòîðèè Ñèðèè. Ãäå ýòà öèâèëèçîâàííàÿ îïïîçèöèÿ? 60 ïðîöåíòîâ òåððèòîðèè Ñèðèè êîíòðîëèðóåò ëèáî ÈÃÈË, ëèáî äðóãèå – «Äæåáõàò àí-Íóñðà» è ïðî÷èå òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèå îðãàíèçàöèè, îðãàíèçàöèè, êîòîðûå ïðèçíàíû òàêîâûìè, â êà÷åñòâå òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèõ, è Ñîåäèí¸ííûìè Øòàòàìè, è äðóãèìè ãîñóäàðñòâàìè, è ÎÎÍ. Îíè [ýòè òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèå îðãàíèçàöèè], à íå êòî‑ëèáî äðóãîé, êîíòðîëèðóþò ïî÷òè 60 ïðîöåíòîâ ñèðèéñêîé òåððèòîðèè.

×.Ðîóç: Òî åñòü òî, ÷òî Âàñ áåñïîêîèò – ýòî òî, ÷òî ìîæåò ïðîèçîéòè ïîñëå [óõîäà] Àñàäà. Âû ãîâîðèòå îá àíàðõèè, Âû âèäèòå óãðîçó ÈÃÈË. Êàê Âû äóìàåòå, ýòî êàêàÿ‑òî îñîáåííàÿ, óíèêàëüíàÿ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêàÿ îðãàíèçàöèÿ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Îíà ïðåâðàòèëàñü â óíèêàëüíóþ, ïîòîìó ÷òî ñòàíîâèòñÿ ãëîáàëüíîé. Âåäü îíè ñòàâÿò ïåðåä ñîáîé öåëü – ñîçäàòü õàëèôàò îò Ïîðòóãàëèè äî Ïàêèñòàíà. Îíè óæå ïðåòåíäóþò íà èñëàìñêèå ñâÿòûíè – íà Ìåêêó è Ìåäèíó. Èõ äåÿòåëüíîñòü, àêòèâíîñòü, ïðîñòèðàåòñÿ óæå äàëåêî çà ãðàíèöû òåõ òåððèòîðèé, êîòîðûå îíè ñåãîäíÿ êîíòðîëèðóþò.

×òî æå êàñàåòñÿ áåæåíöåâ, òî ñòðàíû ïðîèñõîæäåíèÿ áåæåíöåâ, ýòî íå òîëüêî Ñèðèÿ. À èç Ëèâèè êòî áåæèò? Êòî áåæèò èç ñòðàí Öåíòðàëüíîé Àôðèêè, ãäå òîæå èñëàìèñòû ñåãîäíÿ õîçÿéíè÷àþò? Êòî áåæèò èç Àôãàíèñòàíà, èç Èðàêà? ×òî, ðàçâå áåæåíöû áåãóò òîëüêî èç Ñèðèè?

Ïî÷åìó Âû ðåøèëè, ÷òî èç Ñèðèè áåæåíöû áåãóò òîëüêî â ðåçóëüòàòå òåõ äåéñòâèé, êîòîðûå îñóùåñòâëÿåò Àñàä ïî çàùèòå ñâîåãî ãîñóäàðñòâà? Ïî÷åìó Âû íå äóìàåòå, ÷òî áåæåíöû áåãóò â òîì ÷èñëå è îò çâåðñòâ òåððîðèñòîâ, â òîì ÷èñëå èãèëîâöåâ, êîòîðûå îáåçãëàâëèâàþò ëþäåé, ñæèãàþò èõ çàæèâî, òîïÿò, óíè÷òîæàþò ïàìÿòíèêè ìèðîâîé êóëüòóðû?

Ëþäè áåãóò è îò íèõ, è ïðåæäå âñåãî îò íèõ. Íó è, êîíå÷íî, îò áîåâûõ äåéñòâèé – ýòî ïîíÿòíî. Íî èõ áû íå áûëî, ýòèõ áîåâûõ äåéñòâèé, åñëè áû ýòè òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèå ôîðìèðîâàíèÿ íå ïîäïèòûâàëèñü áû èçâíå îðóæèåì è äåíüãàìè. Ó ìåíÿ ñîçäà¸òñÿ âïå÷àòëåíèå, ÷òî êòî‑òî õî÷åò èñïîëüçîâàòü â òîì ÷èñëå îòäåëüíûå ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿ ëèáî ÈÃÈË â öåëîì, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû ñíåñòè Àñàäà, à óæå ïîòîì äóìàòü, êàê èçáàâèòüñÿ îò ÈÃÈË. Ýòî ñëîæíàÿ çàäà÷à, è, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, îíà ïðàêòè÷åñêè íåèñïîëíèìà.

×.Ðîóç: Âû áîèòåñü, ÷òî îíè [òåððîðèñòû] ïðèäóò â Ðîññèþ? Îïàñàåòåñü ëè Âû, ÷òî åñëè ýòî íå îñòàíîâèòü ñåé÷àñ, îíè ìîãóò ïîïàñòü â Ðîññèþ ÷åðåç Åâðîïó, è äàæå â ÑØÀ, è âû ïîýòîìó äîëæíû âìåøàòüñÿ, ïîñêîëüêó íèêòî áîëüøå íå ïðåäïðèíèìàåò íåîáõîäèìûõ øàãîâ, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû ïðîòèâîñòîÿòü ÈÃÈË?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñåðü¸çíûå øàãè â áîðüáå ñ ýòîé óãðîçîé äåéñòâèòåëüíî ìàëî êòî äåëàåò. Ìàëî êòî ïðåäïðèíèìàåò ñåðü¸çíûå, ýôôåêòèâíûå øàãè. Îá ýôôåêòèâíîñòè äåéñòâèé íàøèõ àìåðèêàíñêèõ ïàðòí¸ðîâ ìû ñëûøàëè â õîäå îò÷¸òà Ïåíòàãîíà â ñåíàòå Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ. Íèçêàÿ ýôôåêòèâíîñòü, íàäî ïðÿìî ñêàçàòü. ß çäåñü ñîâåðøåííî íå ñîáèðàþñü, çíàåòå, èðîíèçèðîâàòü, êîãî‑òî òàì öåïëÿòü èëè ïîêàçûâàòü ïàëüöåì íà êîãî‑òî. Ìû ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâî ïðåäëàãàåì, ìû ïðåäëàãàåì îáúåäèíèòü óñèëèÿ.

À áîèìñÿ ìû èëè íå áîèìñÿ? Íàì íå÷åãî áîÿòüñÿ. Ìû â ñâîåé ñòðàíå è êîíòðîëèðóåì ñèòóàöèþ. Íî ìû ïðîøëè ÷åðåç î÷åíü òÿæ¸ëûé ïóòü áîðüáû ñ òåððîðèçìîì, ñ ìåæäóíàðîäíûì òåððîðèçìîì, íà Ñåâåðíîì Êàâêàçå. Ýòî ïåðâîå.

Âòîðîå. Íàì äîñòîâåðíî èçâåñòíî, ÷òî íà òåððèòîðèè Ñèðèè ñåãîäíÿ íàõîäÿòñÿ áîåâèêè ÷èñëîì íå ìåíåå äâóõ òûñÿ÷, à ìîæåò áûòü, è áîëåå äâóõ òûñÿ÷ ÷åëîâåê – âûõîäöû èç Ðîññèè è äðóãèõ ðåñïóáëèê áûâøåãî Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà, è, êîíå÷íî, óãðîçà èõ âîçâðàùåíèÿ â Ðîññèþ ñóùåñòâóåò. È ïîýòîìó ëó÷øå ïîìî÷ü Àñàäó ïîêîí÷èòü ñ íèìè òàì, ÷åì æäàòü, ïîêà îíè ÿâÿòñÿ ñþäà.

×.Ðîóç: Äà, íî Âû ãîâîðèòå, ÷òî ïîäêëþ÷èëèñü, ïîñêîëüêó ñ÷èòàëè, ÷òî ýòà ðàáîòà âûïîëíÿåòñÿ íåäîñòàòî÷íî õîðîøî. Âû ñëûøàëè î òîì, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò â àìåðèêàíñêîì Ñåíàòå, óñëûøàëè î ðåçóëüòàòàõ, è ðåøèëè, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ äîëæíà äåéñòâîâàòü?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìû è òàê äåéñòâóåì è äåéñòâîâàëè âñåãäà ïî ýòîìó íàïðàâëåíèþ. Ìû ñîòðóäíè÷àëè ñî ìíîãèìè ñòðàíàìè è ïðîäîëæàåì ñîòðóäíè÷àòü, â òîì ÷èñëå ñ Ñîåäèí¸ííûìè Øòàòàìè. Ìû ïîñòîÿííî íàïðàâëÿåì íàøèì êîëëåãàì ïî ïàðòí¸ðñêèì êàíàëàì ñïåöñëóæá íóæíóþ äëÿ àìåðèêàíñêèõ ñïåöèàëüíûõ ïîäðàçäåëåíèé èíôîðìàöèþ, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû âíåñòè ñâîé âêëàä â îáåñïå÷åíèå áåçîïàñíîñòè, â òîì ÷èñëå è àìåðèêàíñêèõ ãðàæäàí, è â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ, è çà ïðåäåëàìè Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ. Íî ïîëàãàþ, ÷òî ñåãîäíÿ òàêîãî óðîâíÿ êîîðäèíàöèè íåäîñòàòî÷íî, íóæíî ïëîòíåå ðàáîòàòü äðóã ñ äðóãîì.

×.Ðîóç:  ÷¸ì ñîñòîèò ïðåäëàãàåìàÿ Âàìè ñòðàòåãèÿ, ïîìèìî òîãî, ÷òîáû ïðîñòî ïîääåðæèâàòü ðåæèì Áàøàðà Àñàäà?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß óæå îá ýòîì ñêàçàë: ìû äîëæíû ïîìî÷ü àðìèè Àñàäà. À êðîìå àðìèè Àñàäà ñåãîäíÿ ñ ÈÃÈË íà òåððèòîðèè âîîáùå íèêòî íå âîþåò. ß õî÷ó, ÷òîáû âû è âàøè çðèòåëè, ñëóøàòåëè íàêîíåö îñîçíàëè: íèêòî, êðîìå àðìèè Àñàäà, ñ ÈÃÈË è äðóãèìè òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè îðãàíèçàöèÿìè íà òåððèòîðèè Ñèðèè íå âîþåò, íèêòî.

Íåçíà÷èòåëüíûå óäàðû àâèàöèè, â òîì ÷èñëå àâèàöèè Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, íå ðåøàþò âîïðîñà ïî ñóùåñòâó, ïî ñóòè. Ïîñëå ýòèõ óäàðîâ ðàáîòà äîëæíà èäòè íà òåððèòîðèè, ýòî âñ¸ äîëæíî áûòü ñòðîãî ñêîîðäèíèðîâàíî. Íóæíî ïîíÿòü, êàêèå óäàðû, êóäà íàíîñèòü è êòî çà ýòèìè óäàðàìè áóäåò äàëüøå äâèãàòüñÿ íà òåððèòîðèè.  Ñèðèè, êðîìå àðìèè Àñàäà, íèêàêîé äðóãîé ñèëû íå ñóùåñòâóåò.

×.Ðîóç: Ãîòîâû ëè Âû íàïðàâèòü ðîññèéñêèå âîéñêà â Ñèðèþ, åñëè â ðàìêàõ áîðüáû ñ ÈÃÈË â ýòîì âîçíèêíåò íåîáõîäèìîñòü?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ðîññèÿ íå áóäåò ó÷àñòâîâàòü íè â êàêèõ âîéñêîâûõ îïåðàöèÿõ íà òåððèòîðèè Ñèðèè èëè â äðóãèõ ãîñóäàðñòâàõ, âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå, íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü ìû ýòîãî íå ïëàíèðóåì. Íî ìû äóìàåì íàä òåì, êàê èíòåíñèôèöèðîâàòü íàøó ðàáîòó è ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Àñàäîì, è ñ íàøèìè ïàðòí¸ðàìè â äðóãèõ ñòðàíàõ.

×.Ðîóç: ×òî ýòî îçíà÷àåò?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ýòî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî â áîåâûõ äåéñòâèÿõ íåïîñðåäñòâåííî íàøè âîåííîñëóæàùèå ïðèíèìàòü ó÷àñòèÿ íå áóäóò, íå áóäóò âîåâàòü. Ìû áóäåì ïîääåðæèâàòü àðìèþ Àñàäà…

×.Ðîóç: Âû èìååòå â âèäó àâèàöèîííûå óäàðû?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß èìåþ â âèäó âîéíó, áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ íà òåððèòîðèè, ïåõîòó, ìîòîðèçîâàííûå ÷àñòè.

×.Ðîóç: Ìíîãèå ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî äåéñòâèÿ Àñàäà èãðàþò íà ðóêó ÈÃÈË, ÷òî óæàñíîå îòíîøåíèå ê ñèðèéñêîìó íàðîäó, ïðîòèâ êîòîðîãî ðåæèì èñïîëüçóåò áàððåëü-áîìáû è ïðåäïðèíèìàåò äðóãèå âðàæäåáíûå äåéñòâèÿ ÿâëÿåòñÿ ñâîåãî ðîäà ïîìîùüþ ÈÃÈË. Ñëåäîâàòåëüíî, åñëè Àñàä óéä¸ò, òî â ñòðàíå íàñòàíåò ïåðåõîäíûé ïåðèîä, êîòîðûé áóäåò ñïîñîáñòâîâàòü áîðüáå ïðîòèâ ÈÃÈË.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âûðàæàÿñü ïðîôåññèîíàëüíûì ÿçûêîì ñïåöñëóæá, ìîãó ñêàçàòü, ÷òî òàêàÿ îöåíêà – ýòî ÿâíîå àêòèâíîå ìåðîïðèÿòèå âðàãîâ Àñàäà. Ýòî àíòèñèðèéñêàÿ ïðîïàãàíäà, íè÷åãî îáùåãî ìåæäó Àñàäîì è ÈÃÈË íå ñóùåñòâóåò, îíè âîþþò äðóã ñ äðóãîì. È ïîâòîðÿþ åù¸ ðàç: Àñàä è åãî àðìèÿ – åäèíñòâåííàÿ ñèëà, êîòîðàÿ ðåàëüíî âîþåò ñ ÈÃÈË.

×.Ðîóç: Íî ðàíåå áûëè ñîîáùåíèÿ î òîì, ÷òî âû ãîòîâèòåñü, à òî÷íåå óæå íà÷àëè ñíèæàòü ñòåïåíü ïîääåðæêè ðåæèìà Àñàäà, è â êîí÷åíîì ñ÷¸òå âû õîòåëè ñîãëàñîâàííîãî ïîëèòè÷åñêîãî ïåðåõîäà.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìû ñ÷èòàåì, ÷òî âîïðîñû ïîëèòè÷åñêîãî õàðàêòåðà â ëþáîé ñòðàíå, â òîì ÷èñëå è â Ñèðèè, äîëæíû ðåøàòüñÿ, ïðåæäå âñåãî, å¸ íàðîäîì. Íî ìû ãîòîâû îêàçàòü ñîäåéñòâèå è îôèöèàëüíûì âëàñòÿì Ñèðèè, è çäîðîâîé ÷àñòè îïïîçèöèè â òîì, ÷òîáû îíè íàøëè ìåæäó ñîáîé êàêèå‑òî òî÷êè ñîïðèêîñíîâåíèÿ è äîãîâîðèëèñü î ïîëèòè÷åñêîì áóäóùåì ñâîåé ñòðàíû.

Èìåííî äëÿ ýòîãî ìû îðãàíèçîâàëè â Ìîñêâå ñåðèþ âñòðå÷ ïðåäñòàâèòåëåé îïïîçèöèè è ïðåäñòàâèòåëåé ïðàâèòåëüñòâà Àñàäà. Ìû ïðèíÿëè ó÷àñòèå â Æåíåâñêîé êîíôåðåíöèè íà ýòîò ñ÷åò. Ìû è äàëüøå ãîòîâû äåéñòâîâàòü â ýòîì æå íàïðàâëåíèè, ïîäòàëêèâàÿ îáå ñòîðîíû, è îôèöèàëüíûå âëàñòè, è îïïîçèöèîííûå – ê òîìó, ÷òîáû îíè äîãîâàðèâàëèñü äðóã ñ äðóãîì, íî ìèðíûìè ñðåäñòâàìè.

×.Ðîóç: Âîò òî, ÷òî áûëî íàïèñàíî ñåãîäíÿ â ãàçåòå «The Washington Post»: «Â óñëîâèÿõ âàêóóìà àìåðèêàíñêîãî ëèäåðñòâà Ïðåçèäåíò Ðîññèè Âëàäèìèð Ïóòèí îòïðàâëÿåò âîéñêà è âîåííóþ òåõíèêó â Ñèðèþ, ñòðåìÿñü ïîäòîëêíóòü ìèð ê óðåãóëèðîâàíèþ ñèðèéñêîãî êðèçèñà ïîñðåäñòâîì ñîçäàíèÿ íîâîé êîàëèöèè ïî áîðüáå ñ «Èñëàìñêèì ãîñóäàðñòâîì», êîòîðàÿ âêëþ÷àëà áû â ñåáÿ ñèðèéñêîå ïðàâèòåëüñòâî». Èíòåðåñíî, îíè ãîâîðÿò, ÷òî Âû çàïîëíÿåòå êàê áû âàêóóì àìåðèêàíñêîãî ëèäåðñòâà. Òàê ïèøåò «The Washington Post».

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìû íå çàïîëíÿåì âàêóóì àìåðèêàíñêîãî ëèäåðñòâà, ìû ïûòàåìñÿ ïðåäîòâðàòèòü ñîçäàíèå âàêóóìà âëàñòè â Ñèðèè âîîáùå, ïîòîìó ÷òî êàê òîëüêî óíè÷òîæàþòñÿ ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå ñòðóêòóðû â òîì èëè èíîì ãîñóäàðñòâå, â òîé èëè èíîé ñòðàíå, âîò òîãäà ñîçäàåòñÿ âàêóóì âëàñòè, è ýòîò âàêóóì ìîìåíòàëüíî çàïîëíÿåòñÿ òåððîðèñòàìè. Òàê áûëî â Ëèâèè, â Èðàêå, òàê áûëî â íåêîòîðûõ äðóãèõ ñòðàíàõ. Òî æå ñàìîå ïðîèñõîäèò â Ñîìàëè, â Àôãàíèñòàíå áûëî òî æå ñàìîå. Íè î êàêîé áîðüáå ñ àìåðèêàíñêèì ëèäåðñòâîì äëÿ íàñ ðå÷è íå èäåò.

×.Ðîóç: Íó, âàêóóì – ýòî âîïðîñ. Êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî ó Âàñ âûçûâàåò îïàñåíèå îäèí ìîìåíò: Âû ãîâîðèòå î ïðàâèòåëüñòâå ñèëüíîì è öåíòðàëèçîâàííîì, ïðåäñòàâëåíèå î êîòîðîì ñóùåñòâóåò â ñîçíàíèè ðîññèÿí, è Âû î÷åíü îïàñàåòåñü òîãî, ÷òî ñèëüíîãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà â Ñèðèè íåò, êàê íåò åãî è â íåêîòîðûõ äðóãèõ ñòðàíàõ. Îòñóòñòâèå ñèëüíîé âëàñòè – ýòî Âàø ëè÷íûé ñòðàõ?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß íå ãîâîðþ î òîì, ÷òî òàì íåò ñèëüíîãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà. ß ãîâîðþ î òîì, ÷òî åñëè íå áóäåò íèêàêîãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà, òî áóäåò àíàðõèÿ è âàêóóì, è ýòîò âàêóóì è ýòà àíàðõèÿ áûñòðî òðàíñôîðìèðóþòñÿ â òåððîðèçì.

Âîò â Èðàêå: òàì áûë èçâåñòíûé ïåðñîíàæ Ñàääàì Õóñåéí, îí áûë õîðîø èëè ïëîõ, âåäü íà êàêîì‑òî ýòàïå (Âû, íàâåðíîå, ïîäçàáûëè èëè êàê?) íî âåäü Ñîåäèí¸ííûå Øòàòû àêòèâíî ñîòðóäíè÷àëè ñ Ñàääàìîì, êîãäà îí âîåâàë ñ Èðàíîì: ïîìîãàëè åìó îðóæèåì, äèïëîìàòè÷åñêóþ ïîääåðæêó îñóùåñòâëÿëè, ïîëèòè÷åñêîå ñîïðîâîæäåíèå è òàê äàëåå. Ïîòîì ïî÷åìó‑òî ðàññîðèëèñü ñ íèì è ðåøèëè åãî ëèêâèäèðîâàòü. Íî, ëèêâèäèðóÿ Ñàääàìà Õóñåéíà, ëèêâèäèðîâàëè è èðàêñêóþ ãîñóäàðñòâåííîñòü, è òûñÿ÷è ëþäåé èç áûâøåé ïàðòèè Áààñ, òûñÿ÷è èðàêñêèõ âîåííûõ, êîòîðûå âõîäèëè â ñóííèòñêóþ ýëèòó ãîñóäàðñòâà, îêàçàëèñü âûáðîøåííûìè íà óëèöó. Î íèõ íèêòî íå ïîäóìàë, è ñåãîäíÿ îíè ïîïîëíèëè àðìèþ ÈÃÈË.

Âîò ïðîòèâ ÷åãî ìû âûñòóïàåì. Ìû íå ïðîòèâ òîãî, ÷òîáû êàêàÿ‑òî ñòðàíà îñóùåñòâëÿëà êàêîå‑òî ãäå‑òî ëèäåðñòâî, íî ìû ïðîòèâ áåçäóìíûõ äåéñòâèé, êîòîðûå ïðèâîäÿò ê âîò òàêèì íåãàòèâíûì, òðóäíî èñïðàâëÿåìûì ñèòóàöèÿì.

×.Ðîóç: Êàê Âàì èçâåñòíî, Ìîñêâó íåäàâíî ïîñåòèë ïðåäñòàâèòåëü Èðàíà – ãåíåðàë Ñóëåéìàíè. Êàêîâà áóäåò åãî ðîëü è ðîëü êóðäñêèõ ñèë â Ñèðèè? È ÷òî â ýòîé ñâÿçè íåîáõîäèìî äåëàòü?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß óæå ãîâîðèë: ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî âñå ñòðàíû ðåãèîíà äîëæíû îáúåäèíèòü ñâîè óñèëèÿ â áîðüáå ñ îáùåé óãðîçîé – ñ òåððîðèçìîì â öåëîì è ñ ÈÃÈË â ÷àñòíîñòè. Ýòî êàñàåòñÿ è Èðàíà, ýòî êàñàåòñÿ Ñàóäîâñêîé Àðàâèè – íåñìîòðÿ íà òî ÷òî îòíîøåíèÿ ìåæäó äâóìÿ ñòðàíàìè íå ñàìûå ëó÷øèå, íî óãðîçà îò ÈÃÈË èñõîäèò äëÿ òåõ è äëÿ äðóãèõ, – ýòî êàñàåòñÿ Èîðäàíèè, ýòî êàñàåòñÿ Òóðöèè – íåñìîòðÿ íà òî ÷òî òàì ñóùåñòâóþò îïðåäåë¸ííûå ïðîáëåìû ïî êóðäñêîé ïðîáëåìàòèêå, – íî â óðåãóëèðîâàíèè ñèòóàöèè, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, çàèíòåðåñîâàíû âñå. Íàøà çàäà÷à â òîì, ÷òîáû îáúåäèíèòü ýòè óñèëèÿ äëÿ áîðüáû ñ îáùèì âðàãîì.

×.Ðîóç: Ýòî î÷åíü øèðîêàÿ ôîðìóëèðîâêà, êðîìå âñåãî ïðî÷åãî, ýòî ìîæåò îçíà÷àòü íîâûå óñèëèÿ ñî ñòîðîíû Ðîññèè, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû âçÿòü íà ñåáÿ ëèäèðóþùóþ ðîëü íà Áëèæíåì Âîñòîêå, è ÷òî ýòî ïðåäñòàâëÿåò ñîáîé Âàøó íîâóþ ñòðàòåãèþ. Äåéñòâèòåëüíî ëè ýòî òàê?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íåò, ìû óæå óïîìÿíóëè, ÷òî çàñòàâëÿåò íàñ îêàçûâàòü âîçðàñòàþùóþ ïîääåðæêó Ïðàâèòåëüñòâó Àñàäà è äóìàòü î ïåðñïåêòèâàõ ñèòóàöèè â ðåãèîíå.

ß Âàì óæå ñêàçàë, Âû ñàìè ñïðîñèëè – ÿ îòâåòèë. Áîëåå äâóõ òûñÿ÷ áîåâèêîâ, âûõîäöåâ èç áûâøåãî Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà íàõîäÿòñÿ íà òåððèòîðèè Ñèðèè. Åñòü óãðîçà, ÷òî îíè ê íàì âåðíóòñÿ. Òàê ÷åì æäàòü, ïîêà îíè ê íàì âåðíóòñÿ, ëó÷øå ïîìî÷ü Àñàäó áîðîòüñÿ ñ íèìè òàì, íà òåððèòîðèè Ñèðèè. Âîò ýòî ñàìûé ãëàâíûé ïîáóæäàþùèé ìîòèâ, êîòîðûé ïîäòàëêèâàåò íàñ ê òîìó, ÷òîáû îêàçàòü Àñàäó ñîäåéñòâèå.

 öåëîì ìû, êîíå÷íî, íå õîòèì, ÷òîáû ñèòóàöèÿ â ðåãèîíå ñîìàëèçèðîâàëàñü, ÷òîáû òàì íå âîçíèêàëè âñå íîâûå è íîâûå Ñîìàëè, ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî âñå íàõîäèòñÿ â íåïîñðåäñòâåííîé áëèçîñòè îò íàøèõ ãðàíèö, ìû õîòèì ðàçâèâàòü íîðìàëüíûå îòíîøåíèÿ ñ ýòèìè ñòðàíàìè. Ó íàñ òðàäèöèîííî âîîáùå ñ Áëèæíèì Âîñòîêîì, òðàäèöèîííî, õî÷ó ïîä÷åðêíóòü, âñåãäà áûëè î÷åíü äîáðûå îòíîøåíèÿ. Ìû ðàññ÷èòûâàåì, ÷òî òàê è áóäåò â áóäóùåì.

×.Ðîóç: Âû ãîðäèòåñü Ðîññèåé, è ýòî çíà÷èò, ÷òî Âû õîòèòå, ÷òîáû Ðîññèÿ èãðàëà áîëåå çíà÷èòåëüíóþ ðîëü âî âñ¸ì ìèðå. È ýòî îäèí èç òàêèõ ïðèìåðîâ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ýòî íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ íàøåé ñàìîöåëüþ. ß ãîðæóñü Ðîññèåé è óâåðåí: ïîäàâëÿþùåå áîëüøèíñòâî ãðàæäàí ìîåé ñòðàíû èñïûòûâàåò ÷óâñòâî ëþáâè è óâàæåíèÿ ê ñâîåé Ðîäèíå. Íàì åñòü ÷åì ãîðäèòüñÿ: è ðîññèéñêèé êóëüòóðîé, è ðîññèéñêîé èñòîðèåé. Ó íàñ åñòü âñå îñíîâàíèÿ âåðèòü â áóäóùåå íàøåé ñòðàíû. Íî ó íàñ íåò êàêîãî‑òî ôåòèøà ïî ïîâîäó ñóïåðäåðæàâíîñòè Ðîññèè íà ìèðîâîé àðåíå. Ìû çàíèìàåìñÿ òîëüêî îäíèì — çàùèòîé ñâîèõ êîðåííûõ èíòåðåñîâ.

×.Ðîóç: Íî âû – ýòî îäíî èç ëèäèðóþùèõ ãîñóäàðñòâ, ïîòîìó ÷òî ó âàñ åñòü ÿäåðíîå îðóæèå. Âû ñèëà, ñ êîòîðîé íóæíî ñ÷èòàòüñÿ.

Â.Ïóòèí: ß íàäåþñü, èíà÷å çà÷åì æå ìû èìååì ýòî îðóæèå? Ìû èñõîäèì èç òîãî, ÷òî è ÿäåðíîå îðóæèå, è äðóãèå âèäû âîîðóæåíèé — ýòî ñðåäñòâà çàùèòû íàøåãî ñóâåðåíèòåòà è çàêîííûõ èíòåðåñîâ, à íå ñðåäñòâà äëÿ àãðåññèâíîãî ïîâåäåíèÿ èëè ðåàëèçàöèè êàêèõ‑òî íåñóùåñòâóþùèõ èìïåðñêèõ àìáèöèé.

×.Ðîóç: Êîãäà Âû ïðèåäåòå â Íüþ-Éîðê, Âû çàïðîñèòå âñòðå÷ó ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Îáàìîé?

Â.Ïóòèí: Òàêèå âñòðå÷è ïëàíèðóþòñÿ çàðàíåå. Ó Ïðåçèäåíòà Îáàìû, ÿ çíàþ, â õîäå òàêèõ ìåðîïðèÿòèé äåíü ðàñïèñàí ïî ñåêóíäàì, íå òîëüêî ïî ìèíóòàì, îãðîìíîå êîëè÷åñòâî äåëåãàöèé ñî âñåãî ìèðà.

×.Ðîóç: Âû äóìàåòå, ó íåãî íå íàéäåòñÿ ìèíóòû äëÿ Ïðåçèäåíòà Ðîññèè?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ýòî åãî âûáîð. Ìû âñåãäà îòêðûòû äëÿ ëþáûõ êîíòàêòîâ: è íà ñàìîì âûñîêîì óðîâíå, è íà óðîâíå ìèíèñòåðñòâ, âåäîìñòâ, íà óðîâíå ñïåöèàëüíûõ ñëóæá, åñëè íóæíî. Íî åñëè Ïðåçèäåíò Îáàìà íàéä¸ò ýòè íåñêîëüêî ìèíóò – ÿ áóäó ðàä, êîíå÷íî, ÿ ñ íèì âñòðå÷óñü. Åñëè ïî êàêèì‑òî ïðè÷èíàì ýòî íå óäàñòñÿ ñäåëàòü ñ åãî ñòîðîíû, íè÷åãî ñòðàøíîãî, ó íàñ áóäåò âîçìîæíîñòü ïîãîâîðèòü è íà «äâàäöàòêå», è íà äðóãèõ ìåðîïðèÿòèÿõ.

×.Ðîóç: Âû ãîòîâû óâèäåòü Ïðåçèäåíòà, Âû ñêàæåòå: «Ó ìåíÿ åñòü ïëàí äëÿ Ñèðèè, äàâàéòå ñîòðóäíè÷àòü, äàâàéòå ïîñìîòðèì, ÷òî ìû ìîæåì ñäåëàòü. Äàâàéòå ñîòðóäíè÷àòü ïî Ñèðèè, äàâàéòå ïîñìîòðèì, ÷òî ìû ìîæåì äåëàòü â äðóãèõ îáëàñòÿõ».

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû çíàåòå, äåëî âîò â ÷¸ì. Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî òàêèå ñåðü¸çíûå âîïðîñû (îêîí÷àòåëüíàÿ òî÷êà, ìîæåò áûòü, ñòàâèòñÿ íà ñàìîì âûñîêîì óðîâíå ìåæäó ïðåçèäåíòàìè) ãîòîâÿòñÿ â õîäå ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûõ êîíñóëüòàöèé ìåæäó ìèíèñòðàìè èíîñòðàííûõ äåë, âîåííûìè âåäîìñòâàìè, ñïåöèàëüíûìè ñëóæáàìè.

Ýòî áîëüøàÿ ðàáîòà, è åñëè îíà ãîòîâà ê çàâåðøåíèþ, òî òîãäà åñòü ñìûñë âñòðå÷àòüñÿ, ýòó òî÷êó ïîñòàâèòü. Åñëè íàøè êîëëåãè ê çàâåðøàþùåìó ýòàïó íå ïîäîøëè, ìû ìîæåì ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Îáàìîé âñòðåòèòüñÿ, ïîæàòü äðóã äðóãó ðóêè, ïîãîâîðèòü ïî òåêóùèì âîïðîñàì, ìû, è ÿ ñî ñâîåé ñòîðîíû, ëè÷íî, âñåãäà ãîòîâû ê ýòèì êîíòàêòàì.

×.Ðîóç: Íî ìû ãîâîðèì î ëèäåðñòâå, è åñëè Âû áóäåòå òàì âûñòóïàòü, òî Âû, ÿ äóìàþ, çàõîòèòå, ÷òîáû Ïðåçèäåíò Îáàìà ê ýòîìó ïðèñëóøàëñÿ. ß äóìàþ, åñëè Âû ïîçâîíèòå åìó… È Âû òàê óæå äåëàëè ïîñëå íàøåãî îáñóæäåíèÿ ýòîãî âîïðîñà â Ïåòåðáóðãå, Âû ïîçâîíèëè òîãäà Ïðåçèäåíòó è ñêàçàëè: «Äàâàéòå îáÿçàòåëüíî âñòðåòèìñÿ è îáñóäèì âàæíûå âîïðîñû, ïîòîìó ÷òî ìû âäâî¸ì áóäåì äåëàòü ÷òî‑òî ëó÷øå, ÷åì ïî îòäåëüíîñòè».

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, è ÿ òàê äåëàë, ÿ çâîíèë Ïðåçèäåíòó Îáàìå, è Ïðåçèäåíò Îáàìà ìíå çâîíèë ïî ðàçíûì âîïðîñàì. Ýòî âõîäèò â îáû÷íóþ ïðàêòèêó íàøåãî âçàèìîäåéñòâèÿ, çäåñü íåò íè÷åãî íåîáû÷íîãî, íè÷åãî ýêñòðàîðäèíàðíîãî.

Ïîâòîðþ åù¸ ðàç: ëþáûå ëè÷íûå âñòðå÷è, îíè, êàê ïðàâèëî, ãîòîâÿòñÿ íàøèìè ñîòðóäíèêàìè. ß Âàì â òðåòèé ðàç ãîâîðþ: ìû ãîòîâû, íî ýòî íå îò íàñ çàâèñèò. Åñëè àìåðèêàíñêàÿ ñòîðîíà õî÷åò çäåñü âñòðå÷, ìû áóäåì âñòðå÷àòüñÿ.

×.Ðîóç: Âàì âîîáùå íå íóæíî ãîòîâèòüñÿ, ïîòîìó ÷òî Âû êàæäûé äåíü çàíèìàåòåñü ýòèìè âîïðîñàìè. Êàêàÿ Âàì íóæíà ïîäãîòîâêà äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû âñòðåòèòüñÿ ñ Îáàìîé? È åìó íå íóæíà. Äóìàþ, òî, î ÷¸ì Âû ãîâîðèòå, ýòî êàêèå‑òî äèïëîìàòè÷åñêèå ëþáåçíîñòè.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñêîëüêî ëåò Âû ðàáîòàåòå æóðíàëèñòîì?

×.Ðîóç: Áîëüøå, ÷åì ÿ õî÷ó âñïîìèíàòü, ÷åñòíî ãîâîðÿ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìíå òðóäíî äàâàòü Âàì ñîâåòû, ê ÷åìó Âû ãîòîâû, ê ÷åìó Âû íå ãîòîâû. (Ñìåõ.)

Ïî÷åìó Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ÷òî Âû ìîæåòå äàâàòü ìíå ñîâåòû, ê ÷åìó ÿ ãîòîâ èëè íå ãîòîâ, êîãäà ÿ óæå íå ïåðâûé ñðîê ðàáîòàþ Ïðåçèäåíòîì? Íî ñàìîå ãëàâíîå íå â ýòîì. Ñàìîå ãëàâíîå, ÷òî è Ðîññèÿ – è Ïðåçèäåíò Ðîññèè, è Ïðàâèòåëüñòâî, è âñå ìîè êîëëåãè – ìû ãîòîâû ê ýòèì êîíòàêòàì íà ñàìîì âûñîêîì óðîâíå, íà ïðàâèòåëüñòâåííîì, íà óðîâíå ìèíèñòåðñòâ, âåäîìñòâ. Íàñòîëüêî ãîòîâû èäòè äàëåêî, íàñêîëüêî ãîòîâû íàøè àìåðèêàíñêèå ïàðòí¸ðû.

Êñòàòè ãîâîðÿ, ïëîùàäêà ÎÎÍ, îíà äëÿ ýòîãî è ñîçäàâàëàñü, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû èñêàòü êîìïðîìèññû, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû îáùàòüñÿ äðóã ñ äðóãîì. Ïîýòîìó, êîíå÷íî, åñëè ìû âîñïîëüçóåìñÿ ýòîé ïëîùàäêîé, ýòî áóäåò õîðîøî.

×.Ðîóç: Ïîçâîëüòå ñïðîñèòü, ÷òî Âû äóìàåòå î Ïðåçèäåíòå Îáàìå? Êàê Âû îöåíèâàåòå åãî?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß íå ñ÷èòàþ ñåáÿ âïðàâå äàâàòü îöåíêè Ïðåçèäåíòó Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ. Ýòî äåëî àìåðèêàíñêîãî íàðîäà. Ó íàñ ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Îáàìîé õîðîøèå ëè÷íûå îòíîøåíèÿ, äîñòàòî÷íî îòêðîâåííûå è äåëîâûå. Ýòîãî âïîëíå äîñòàòî÷íî äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû èñïîëíÿòü íàøè ôóíêöèè.

×.Ðîóç: Êàê Âû äóìàåòå, åãî äåÿòåëüíîñòü â ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ îòíîøåíèÿõ îòðàæàåò ñëàáîñòü?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ïî÷åìó? Ñîâñåì ÿ òàê íå ñ÷èòàþ. Ïîíèìàåòå, äåëî âîò â ÷¸ì.  ëþáîé ñòðàíå, â òîì ÷èñëå è â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ – â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ, ìîæåò áûòü, äàæå ÷àùå, ÷åì â êàêîé‑òî äðóãîé ñòðàíå, – âíåøíåïîëèòè÷åñêèå ôàêòîðû èñïîëüçóþòñÿ äëÿ âíóòðèïîëèòè÷åñêîé áîðüáû.  Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ ñêîðî óæå ïðåäâûáîðíàÿ êàìïàíèÿ. Âñåãäà ðàçûãðûâàåòñÿ ëèáî ðîññèéñêàÿ êàðòà, ëèáî åù¸ êàêàÿ‑òî, ïîëèòè÷åñêèå ïðîòèâíèêè âûäâèãàþò âñÿêèå îáâèíåíèÿ ïðîòèâ äåéñòâóþùåãî ãëàâû ãîñóäàðñòâà, à çäåñü ìíîãî âñÿêèõ ëèíèé àòàêè, â òîì ÷èñëå îáâèíåíèÿ â íåêîìïåòåíòíîñòè, â ñëàáîñòè, åù¸ â ÷¸ì‑òî. ß òàê íå ñ÷èòàþ è ââÿçûâàòüñÿ âî âíóòðèïîëèòè÷åñêèå àìåðèêàíñêèå äðÿçãè íå ñîáèðàþñü.

×.Ðîóç: Ïîçâîëüòå çàäàòü Âàì òàêîé âîïðîñ: êàê Âû äóìàåòå, îí ê Âàì ïðèñëóøèâàåòñÿ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî ìû âñå äðóã ê äðóãó îò÷àñòè ïðèñëóøèâàåìñÿ èìåííî â òîé ÷àñòè, êîòîðàÿ íå ïðîòèâîðå÷èò íàøèì ñîáñòâåííûì ïðåäñòàâëåíèÿì î òîì, ÷òî ìû äîëæíû äåëàòü, à ÷åãî íå äîëæíû. Íî, âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå, ó íàñ ñóùåñòâóåò äèàëîã, è ìû ñëûøèì äðóã äðóãà.

×.Ðîóç: Âû ñëûøèòå äðóã äðóãà. Âû ãîâîðèòå, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ – íå ñâåðõäåðæàâà. Êàê Âû äóìàåòå, îí ñ÷èòàåò Ðîññèþ ðàâíîé? Ñ÷èòàåò ëè îí Âàñ ðàâíûì? È ýòî òî, êàê Âû õîòèòå, ÷òîáû ê Âàì îòíîñèëèñü?

Â.Ïóòèí: (Ñìåõ.) Òàê Âû åãî ñïðîñèòå, îí æå âàø Ïðåçèäåíò. Êàê ÿ ìîãó çíàòü, ÷òî îí äóìàåò?

Ïîâòîðÿþ, ó íàñ ðîâíûå è ìåæëè÷íîñòíûå îòíîøåíèÿ, è ÷åëîâå÷åñêèå î÷åíü ðîâíûå, óâàæèòåëüíûå, âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå, äðóã ê äðóãó, è äåëîâûå êîíòàêòû âïîëíå íà õîðîøåì ðàáî÷åì óðîâíå. À ÷òî äóìàåò Ïðåçèäåíò Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, Ïðåçèäåíò Ôðàíöèè, Êàíöëåð ÔÐÃ, Ïðåìüåð ßïîíèè èëè Ïðåäñåäàòåëü Ãîññîâåòà ÊÍÐ èëè Ïðåäñåäàòåëü ÊÍÐ, îòêóäà ÿ çíàþ? Ìû ñìîòðèì íå ïî òîìó, ÷òî íàì êàæåòñÿ, à ïî òîìó, ÷òî ëþäè äåëàþò.

×.Ðîóç: Êîíå÷íî, ÿ ñ Âàìè ïîëíîñòüþ ñîãëàñåí. Âàì íðàâèòñÿ ïðåäñòàâëÿòü Ðîññèþ, Âû ëþáèòå ñâîþ ðàáîòó, è ÿ çíàþ, ÷òî Âû ðàáîòàëè âî âíåøíåé ðàçâåäêå, è ÿ ïîíèìàþ, ÷òî ýòî Âàøà ðàáîòà – «÷èòàòü ëþäåé».

Â.Ïóòèí: Áûëà ìîÿ ðàáîòà. Ñåãîäíÿ ó ìåíÿ äðóãàÿ ðàáîòà è óæå äîâîëüíî äàâíî.

×.Ðîóç: Êòî‑òî â Ðîññèè ìíå ñêàçàë, ÷òî áûâøèõ ñîòðóäíèêîâ ÊÃÁ íå áûâàåò.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû çíàåòå, áåññëåäíî íå ïðîõîäèò íè îäèí ýòàï íàøåé æèçíè. ×åì áû ìû íè çàíèìàëèñü, ÷òî áû ìû íè äåëàëè, âñåãäà ýòè çíàíèÿ, ýòîò îïûò, îíè âñåãäà îñòàþòñÿ ñ íàìè, è ìû íåñ¸ì èõ ñ ñîáîé äàëüøå, êàê‑òî èñïîëüçóåì.  ýòîì ñìûñëå – äà, îíè ïðàâû.

×.Ðîóç: Îäíàæäû îäèí èç ñîòðóäíèêîâ ÖÐÓ ñêàçàë ìíå, ÷òî Âû îáëàäàåòå âàæíûìè íàâûêàìè. Âû ìîæåòå î÷àðîâûâàòü ëþäåé, è ó Âàñ ýòî õîðîøî ïîëó÷àåòñÿ. Âû èõ ñâîåãî ðîäà ñîáëàçíÿåòå.

Â.Ïóòèí: Åñëè Âàì ñêàçàëè â ÖÐÓ, òî òàê, íàâåðíîå, îíî è åñòü. Îíè ñïåöèàëèñòû íåïëîõèå. (Ñìåõ.)

×.Ðîóç: Íó ýòî Âû çíàåòå, ÿ óâåðåí.

Äàâàéòå ìûñëè âñëóõ, ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî âàæíî. Êàê Ñîåäèí¸ííûå Øòàòû è Ðîññèÿ ìîãóò ñîòðóäíè÷àòü, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû ìèð áûë ëó÷øå? Ïîäóìàéòå îá ýòîì.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìû âñ¸ âðåìÿ íàä ýòèì äóìàåì. Îäíî íàïðàâëåíèå íàøåãî âçàèìîäåéñòâèÿ, êîòîðîå ÿâëÿåòñÿ ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíûì ñåãîäíÿ äëÿ ìíîãèõ ëþäåé, äëÿ ìèëëèîíîâ ëþäåé íà ïëàíåòå – ýòî îáùåå îáúåäèíåíèå óñèëèé è îáùàÿ áîðüáà ñ òåððîðèçìîì, ñ äðóãèìè ïðîÿâëåíèÿìè ïîäîáíîãî ðîäà: áîðüáà ñ íàðêîòèêàìè, áîðüáà ñ ðàñïðîñòðàíåíèåì îðóæèÿ ìàññîâîãî óíè÷òîæåíèÿ, áîðüáà ñ ãîëîäîì, áîðüáà çà ýêîëîãèþ, áîðüáà çà ñîõðàíåíèå ðàçíîîáðàçèÿ ìèðà, áîðüáà çà òî, ÷òîáû ìèð áûë áîëåå ïðîãíîçèðóåìûì, áîëåå ñòàáèëüíûì.

×.Ðîóç: Ñòàáèëüíûì ãäå?

Â.Ïóòèí: Âåçäå, âî âñåõ ðåãèîíàõ. Òî, ÷òî Âû ñêàçàëè, Âû ñàìè óïîìÿíóëè î òîì, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ è Ñîåäèí¸ííûå Øòàòû – êðóïíåéøèå ÿäåðíûå äåðæàâû, ýòî íàêëàäûâàåò íà íàñ äîïîëíèòåëüíî îñîáóþ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü. Êñòàòè ãîâîðÿ, íà îòäåëüíûõ íàïðàâëåíèÿõ ìû ñ íåé ñïðàâëÿåìñÿ è âìåñòå ðàáîòàåì, â ÷àñòíîñòè ïî èðàíñêîé ÿäåðíîé ïðîãðàììå. Ìû æå ðàáîòàëè âìåñòå è â öåëîì äîáèëèñü ïîëîæèòåëüíîãî ðåçóëüòàòà.

×.Ðîóç: À êàê æå ýòî ñðàáîòàëî? Ïðåçèäåíò Îáàìà íåîäíîêðàòíî áëàãîäàðèë Âàñ çà ïîìîùü, êîòîðóþ Âû îêàçàëè â äîñòèæåíèè ýòîãî îêîí÷àòåëüíîãî ñîãëàøåíèÿ. ×òî ñäåëàëè Âû è âàøè äèïëîìàòû, ÷òî ñäåëàë âàø Ìèíèñòð èíîñòðàííûõ äåë Ëàâðîâ, ÷òîáû äîñòè÷ü ýòîãî?

Â.Ïóòèí: Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî, êàê ýòî íè ïîêàæåòñÿ êîìó‑òî ñòðàííûì, èíòåðåñû Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ è Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè èíîãäà âñ¸‑òàêè ñîâïàäàþò. È â äàííîì ñëó÷àå, êîãäà ÿ Âàì ãîâîðèë, òîëüêî ÷òî ãîâîðèë î òîì, ÷òî íà íàñ ëåæèò îñîáàÿ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü çà íåðàñïðîñòðàíåíèå îðóæèÿ ìàññîâîãî óíè÷òîæåíèÿ, íàøè èíòåðåñû òî÷íî çäåñü ñîâïàäàþò. Èìåííî ïîýòîìó ìû ñîâìåñòíî ñ Ñîåäèí¸ííûìè Øòàòàìè ïîñëåäîâàòåëüíî è íàïðÿæ¸ííî ðàáîòàëè íàä ðàçðåøåíèåì ýòîé ïðîáëåìû.

Ðîññèÿ ðóêîâîäñòâîâàëàñü íå òîëüêî ýòèìè ñîîáðàæåíèÿìè, à åù¸ è òåì, ÷òî Èðàí – íàø ñîñåä, íàø òðàäèöèîííûé ïàðòí¸ð, è ìû î÷åíü õîòåëè, ÷òîáû ñèòóàöèÿ âîêðóã ýòîé ñòðàíû áûëà íîðìàëèçîâàíà. Ìû èñõîäèì èç òîãî, ÷òî ïîñëå íîðìàëèçàöèè è ðåøåíèÿ ýòîé ïðîáëåìû ñèòóàöèÿ ñ áåçîïàñíîñòüþ â ðåãèîíå Áëèæíåãî Âîñòîêà äîëæíà óêðåïèòüñÿ. È â ýòîì ñìûñëå íàøè îöåíêè òîãî, ÷òî ïðîèçîøëî ïî èðàíñêîé ÿäåðíîé ïðîáëåìå, ïðàêòè÷åñêè ïîëíîñòüþ ñîâïàäàþò ñ àìåðèêàíñêèìè ïàðòí¸ðàìè.

×.Ðîóç: Ñëåäóþùèì Ïðåçèäåíòîì ÑØÀ, âåðîÿòíî, ñòàíåò ðåñïóáëèêàíåö. Êàê Âû çíàåòå, âñå ÷ëåíû Ðåñïóáëèêàíñêîé ïàðòèè âûñòóïàþò ïðîòèâ ñîãëàøåíèÿ ïî Èðàíó. ×òî áû Âû èì ñêàçàëè?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß òîëüêî ÷òî ñêàçàë. Åñëè íóæíî ïîâòîðèòü, ÿ ãîòîâ ïîâòîðèòü åù¸ ðàç.

Ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî äîñòèãíóòàÿ äîãîâîð¸ííîñòü îòâå÷àåò èíòåðåñàì ìåæäóíàðîäíîé áåçîïàñíîñòè, óêðåïëÿåò ñèòóàöèþ â ðåãèîíå, ñòàâèò îïðåäåë¸ííûå ñåðü¸çíûå ïðåãðàäû íà ïóòè ðàñïðîñòðàíåíèÿ ÿäåðíîãî îðóæèÿ, ïîñêîëüêó ñèòóàöèÿ áåð¸òñÿ ïîä ïîëíûé è âñåñòîðîííèé êîíòðîëü ÌÀÃÀÒÝ è íîðìàëèçóåò ñèòóàöèþ íà Áëèæíåì Âîñòîêå â öåëîì, ïîòîìó ÷òî ïîçâîëÿåò ñòðîèòü íîðìàëüíûå äåëîâûå, êîììåð÷åñêèå, ïàðòí¸ðñêèå, ïîëèòè÷åñêèå îòíîøåíèÿ ñî âñåìè ñòðàíàìè ðåãèîíà.

×.Ðîóç: Âàøåìó ðåéòèíãó ïîïóëÿðíîñòè â Ðîññèè, ÿ äóìàþ, ïîçàâèäóåò ëþáîé äðóãîé ïîëèòèê â ìèðå. ×òî äåëàåò Âàñ íàñòîëüêî ïîïóëÿðíûì?

Â.Ïóòèí: Åñòü íå÷òî, ÷òî îáúåäèíÿåò ìåíÿ è äðóãèõ ãðàæäàí Ðîññèè, ó íàñ åñòü íå÷òî îáùåå, ÷òî íàñ îáúåäèíÿåò, – ëþáîâü ê Ðîäèíå.

×.Ðîóç: Âî âðåìÿ ïðàçäíîâàíèÿ 70-ëåòíåé ãîäîâùèíû îêîí÷àíèÿ Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíû, êîãäà âñå âñïîìèíàëè î æåðòâàõ, êîòîðûå ïîíåñëà Ðîññèÿ, íàñ âñåõ î÷åíü ñèëüíî òðîíóëà êàðòèíà: Âû ñòîÿëè ñî ñëåçàìè íà ãëàçàõ, äåðæà â ðóêàõ ôîòîãðàôèþ Âàøåãî îòöà.

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, ìîÿ ñåìüÿ ïîíåñëà ñåðü¸çíûå ïîòåðè, ìîè ðîäñòâåííèêè â öåëîì â õîäå Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíû. Ýòî ïðàâäà.  ñåìüå îòöà, ó íèõ áûëî, ïî‑ìîåìó, ïÿòü áðàòüåâ, ÷åòâåðî ïîãèáëè. Ñî ñòîðîíû ìàìû – òàì òîæå ïðèìåðíî òàêàÿ æå êàðòèíà. Ðîññèÿ âîîáùå ïîñòðàäàëà ñèëüíî. Êîíå÷íî, ìû íå ìîæåì ýòîãî çàáûòü è íå äîëæíû çàáûâàòü, íå äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû êîãî‑òî îáâèíÿòü, à äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû íè÷åãî ïîäîáíîãî â áóäóùåì íå ïîâòîðèëîñü. Ìû äîëæíû ïîìíèòü îá ýòîì.

Ìû, êñòàòè ãîâîðÿ, ñ áîëüøèì óâàæåíèåì îòíîñèìñÿ ê âåòåðàíàì, â òîì ÷èñëå ê àìåðèêàíñêèì âåòåðàíàì. Îíè áûëè íà Ïàðàäå Ïîáåäû ó íàñ 9 ìàÿ ýòîãî ãîäà. Ìû ïîìíèì è î æåðòâàõ, êîòîðûå ïîíåñëè äðóãèå ñòðàíû êîàëèöèè, Âåëèêîáðèòàíèÿ, Êèòàé. Ìû ïîìíèì îá ýòîì. Ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ýòî íàøà îáùàÿ ïîçèòèâíàÿ ïàìÿòü. Íàøà ñîâìåñòíàÿ áîðüáà ñ íàöèçìîì âñ¸‑òàêè áóäåò õîðîøåé ïëàòôîðìîé äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ïðåîäîëåâàòü òå ïðîáëåìû, ñ êîòîðûìè ìû ñòàëêèâàåìñÿ ñåãîäíÿ.

×.Ðîóç: Ýòî òî, ÷òî Âû õîòåëè áû óêðåïèòü, – ïàðòí¸ðñòâî ñ Àìåðèêîé, íàïðàâëåííîå ïðîòèâ îáùèõ âðàãîâ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íå ïðîòèâ îáùèõ âðàãîâ, à â èíòåðåñàõ äðóã äðóãà.

×.Ðîóç: Íåñìîòðÿ íà òî, ÷òî, êàê Âàì èçâåñòíî, Âû î÷åíü ïîïóëÿðíû, ìíîãèå â Ðîññèè Âàñ êðèòèêóþò. Íàñêîëüêî Âàì èçâåñòíî, îíè ãîâîðÿò, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ – ñêîðåå àâòîêðàòè÷íà, ÷åì äåìîêðàòè÷íà. Ïîëèòè÷åñêàÿ îïïîçèöèÿ è æóðíàëèñòû íàõîäÿòñÿ â ðîññèéñêèõ òþðüìàõ, èõ óáèâàþò. Óòâåðæäàþò, ÷òî Âàøà âëàñòü – áåçðàçäåëüíà, à òàêæå, ÷òî âëàñòü è, òåì áîëåå, àáñîëþòíàÿ âëàñòü ðàçâðàùàåò àáñîëþòíî. ×òî áû Âû ñêàçàëè ýòèì ëþäÿì, îáåñïîêîåííûì ïîëèòè÷åñêèì êëèìàòîì â Ðîññèè?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íå ìîæåò áûòü íèêàêîé äåìîêðàòèè áåç ñîáëþäåíèÿ çàêîíà, è âñå äîëæíû åãî ñîáëþäàòü – ýòî ñàìîå ãëàâíîå è îñíîâíîå, î ÷¸ì ìû âñå äîëæíû ïîìíèòü, î ÷¸ì íèêòî íå äîëæåí çàáûâàòü.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ òàêèõ òðàãè÷åñêèõ âåùåé, êàê ãèáåëü ëþäåé, â òîì ÷èñëå æóðíàëèñòîâ, – ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ýòî ïðîèñõîäèò âî âñåõ ñòðàíàõ ìèðà. Íî åñëè ýòî ïðîèñõîäèò ó íàñ, ìû äåëàåì âñ¸ äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû âèíîâíèêè áûëè íàéäåíû, èçîáëè÷åíû è íàêàçàíû.

Ìû òàê áóäåì äåéñòâîâàòü ïî âñåì íàïðàâëåíèÿì. Íî ñàìîå ãëàâíîå, ÷òî ìû áóäåì è äàëüøå ðàáîòàòü íàä ñîâåðøåíñòâîâàíèåì íàøåé ïîëèòè÷åñêîé ñèñòåìû, ñ òåì ÷òîáû ëþäè ÷óâñòâîâàëè, ðÿäîâîé ÷åëîâåê ÷óâñòâîâàë, ÷òî îí âëèÿåò íà æèçíü ãîñóäàðñòâà è îáùåñòâà, âëèÿåò íà âëàñòü, è ÷òîáû âëàñòü ÷óâñòâîâàëà îòâåòñòâåííîñòü ïåðåä òåìè ëþäüìè, êîòîðûå äîâåðÿþò ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿì âëàñòè â õîäå èçáèðàòåëüíûõ êàìïàíèé.

×.Ðîóç: Êàê Âàì õîðîøî èçâåñòíî, åñëè Âû, êàê ëèäåð ýòîé ñòðàíû, áóäåòå íàñòàèâàòü íà âåðõîâåíñòâå çàêîíà è ñïðàâåäëèâîñòè, òîãäà ìîæíî äîáèòüñÿ ìíîãîãî â ïëàíå èñêîðåíåíèÿ òàêîãî íåãàòèâíîãî âîñïðèÿòèÿ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìîæíî ìíîãîå, íî íå ó âñåõ è íå âñ¸ ñðàçó ïîëó÷àåòñÿ. Âîò â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ ñêîëüêî äåìîêðàòè÷åñêèé ïðîöåññ ðàçâèâàåòñÿ? Ñ ñàìîãî íà÷àëà ñîçäàíèÿ Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ. Íó à ÷òî, ñåé÷àñ, Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ÷òî âñ¸ ðåøåíî ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ äåìîêðàòèè? Åñëè áû âñ¸ áûëî ðåøåíî, òî íå áûëî áû ïðîáëåìû Ôåðãþñîíà, ïðàâäà? Íå áûëî áû äðóãèõ ïðîáëåì ïîäîáíîãî ðîäà, íå áûëî áû ïðîèçâîëà ïîëèöèè. Íî íàøà çàäà÷à çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â òîì, ÷òîáû âèäåòü âñå ýòè ïðîáëåìû è âîâðåìÿ è äîëæíûì îáðàçîì íà ýòî ðåàãèðîâàòü. Òî æå ñàìîå êàñàåòñÿ Ðîññèè. Ó íàñ òîæå ìíîãî ïðîáëåì.

×.Ðîóç: Òàêèì îáðàçîì, ëþäåé, êîòîðûå óáèëè Áîðèñà Íåìöîâà, èõ áóäóò â ïîëíîé ìåðå ïðåñëåäîâàòü ïî çàêîíó?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß ñðàçó ñêàçàë îá ýòîì, ÷òî ýòî ïîçîðíàÿ ñòðàíèöà â íàøåé ñîâðåìåííîé èñòîðèè, è ïðåñòóïíèêè äîëæíû áûòü íàéäåíû è èçîáëè÷åíû, íàêàçàíû. Ìîæåò áûòü, ýòî íå ñðàçó äåëàåòñÿ, íî ó íàñ åñòü è äðóãèå ïðèìåðû ïðåñòóïëåíèé ïîäîáíîãî ðîäà. È â êîíå÷íîì èòîãå, íåñìîòðÿ íà òî ÷òî ðàññëåäîâàíèå äëèòñÿ äîñòàòî÷íî äîëãî, îíî ïðèõîäèò ê ñâîåìó ëîãè÷åñêîìó çàâåðøåíèþ.

×.Ðîóç: Âû çíàåòå, ÷òî ÿ âîñõèùàþñü Ðîññèåé, ðîññèéñêîé êóëüòóðîé, ëèòåðàòóðîé, ìóçûêîé. Ýòî îãðîìíàÿ ñòðàíà, áîëüøàÿ ñòðàíà. Ìíîãèå ëþäè, âêëþ÷àÿ Ñòàëèíà, ãîâîðèëè, ÷òî Ðîññèè íåîáõîäèì ñèëüíûé, àâòîðèòàðíûé ëèäåð. «Ðîññèè, – ãîâîðèë Ñòàëèí, – íóæíà òàêàÿ ôèãóðà». Áûë ëè Ñòàëèí ïðàâ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íåò. ß íå ïîìíþ, ãäå îí ýòî ãîâîðèë, ïîýòîìó íå ìîãó ïîäòâåðäèòü ýòè öèòàòû. Ðîññèè, òàê æå êàê è ëþáîé äðóãîé ñòðàíå, íóæíû íå äèêòàòîðû, à íóæíû ñïðàâåäëèâûå ïðèíöèïû îðãàíèçàöèè ãîñóäàðñòâà è îáùåñòâà, ñïðàâåäëèâûå, ýôôåêòèâíûå è ãèáêî ðåàãèðóþùèå íà èçìåíåíèÿ ìèðà âíóòðè ñòðàíû è âîâíå, – âîò ÷òî íóæíî Ðîññèè.

×.Ðîóç: Íî â Ðîññèè ñóùåñòâóåò òðàäèöèÿ ñèëüíîãî ðóêîâîäñòâà.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñìîòðèòå: â áîëüøèíñòâå åâðîïåéñêèõ ñòðàí ïàðëàìåíòñêàÿ äåìîêðàòèÿ, â ßïîíèè ïàðëàìåíòñêàÿ äåìîêðàòèÿ, âî ìíîãèõ ñòðàíàõ ïàðëàìåíòñêàÿ äåìîêðàòèÿ, íî ïî÷åìó‑òî â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ ãîñóäàðñòâî óñòðîåíî ïî‑äðóãîìó – òàì äîñòàòî÷íî æ¸ñòêàÿ ïðåçèäåíòñêàÿ ðåñïóáëèêà.

Ó êàæäîé ñòðàíû åñòü ñâîè îñîáåííîñòè, ñâîè òðàäèöèè, êîòîðûå îòðàæàþòñÿ â ñåãîäíÿøíåì äíå è áóäóò îòðàæàòüñÿ â áóäóùåì. Åñòü òàêèå òðàäèöèè è â Ðîññèè, íî ðå÷ü èä¸ò íå î ñèëüíîì ÷åëîâåêå, õîòÿ ñèëüíûé ÷åëîâåê íóæåí âî âëàñòè, âîïðîñ òîëüêî â òîì, ÷òî ïîíèìàòü ïîä ïîíÿòèåì ñèëüíîãî ÷åëîâåêà. Åñëè ýòî ÷åëîâåê ñ äèêòàòîðñêèìè íàêëîííîñòÿìè – ýòî îäíî. À åñëè ýòî ïðîñòî ñïðàâåäëèâûé ðóêîâîäèòåëü, êîòîðûé äåéñòâóåò â ðàìêàõ ñâîèõ ïîëíîìî÷èé, â ðàìêàõ çàêîíà è â èíòåðåñàõ ïîäàâëÿþùåãî áîëüøèíñòâà îáùåñòâà, äåéñòâóåò ïîñëåäîâàòåëüíî è ïðèíöèïèàëüíî, òî ýòî ñîâåðøåííî äðóãîå.

ß ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ âîò â òàêèõ ëþäÿõ, âòîðîãî òèïà, íóæäàåòñÿ, êîíå÷íî, ãîðàçäî áîëüøå, ÷åì ïðîñòî â ëþäÿõ ñ äèêòàòîðñêèìè çàìàøêàìè.

×.Ðîóç: Êàê Âàì èçâåñòíî, íåêîòîðûå íàçûâàþò Âàñ öàð¸ì.

Â.Ïóòèí: Íó è ÷òî? Ìåíÿ, çíàåòå, ïî‑ðàçíîìó íàçûâàþò.

×.Ðîóç: Ýòîò òèòóë Âàì ñîîòâåòñòâóåò?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íåò. Ó íàñ çíàåòå êàê ãîâîðÿò: õîòü ãîðøêîì íàçûâàéòå, òîëüêî â ïå÷êó íå ñòàâüòå. Âàæíî íå òî, êàê òåáÿ íàçûâàþò ñî ñòîðîíû äîáðîæåëàòåëè, äðóçüÿ èëè òâîè ïîëèòè÷åñêèå ïðîòèâíèêè. Âàæíî òî, ÷òî òû ñàì äóìàåøü î òîì, ÷òî òû îáÿçàí äåëàòü â èíòåðåñàõ ñòðàíû, êîòîðàÿ òåáå äîâåðèëà òàêîé ïîñò, êàê ãëàâà Ðîññèéñêîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà.

×.Ðîóç: Ëþäè â Ðîññèè Âàñ áîÿòñÿ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Äóìàþ, ÷òî íåò. ß èñõîæó èç òîãî, ÷òî áîëüøèíñòâî ëþäåé ìíå äîâåðÿåò, åñëè ãîëîñóþò çà ìåíÿ íà âûáîðàõ. À ýòî ñàìîå ãëàâíîå. Ýòî íàêëàäûâàåò îãðîìíóþ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü, êîëîññàëüíóþ. ß áëàãîäàðåí ëþäÿì çà ýòî äîâåðèå, íî, êîíå÷íî, ÷óâñòâóþ îãðîìíóþ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü çà òî, ÷òî ÿ äåëàþ, è çà ðåçóëüòàò ñâîåé ðàáîòû.

×.Ðîóç: Â ÑØÀ î Âàñ î÷åíü ìíîãî ãîâîðÿò.

Â.Ïóòèí: Íå÷åì áîëüøå çàíÿòüñÿ? (Ñìåõ.)

×.Ðîóç: Ìîæåò áûòü, îíè ïðîñòî ëþáîïûòíûå ëþäè? Ìîæåò áûòü, Âû èíòåðåñíûé ÷åëîâåê, ìîæåò, â ýòîì âñå äåëî?

Íî îíè âèäÿò â Âàñ, ïðåæäå âñåãî, î÷åíü ñèëüíîãî ëèäåðà. Îíè çíàþò, ÷òî Âû ðàáîòàëè â ÊÃÁ, çàòåì ñòðîèëè ñâîþ ïîëèòè÷åñêóþ êàðüåðó â Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãå, ñòàâ çàìåñòèòåëåì ìýðà, è äàëåå ïåðååõàëè â Ìîñêâó. Ïðèìå÷àòåëüíî òî, ÷òî îíè âèäÿò Âàñ íà ôîòîãðàôèÿõ ñ ãîëûì òîðñîì, ñêà÷óùèì íà ëîøàäè, è îíè ãîâîðÿò: ýòî ÷åëîâåê, êîòîðûé ñîçäà¸ò ñâîé îáðàç ñèëüíîãî ìóæ÷èíû.

Â.Ïóòèí: ß óâåðåí, ÷òî ÷åëîâåê, êîòîðûé íàõîäèòñÿ íà ìî¸ì ìåñòå, âñ¸‑òàêè äîëæåí äàâàòü ïîëîæèòåëüíûé ïðèìåð ëþäÿì.  òåõ îáëàñòÿõ, ãäå îí ìîæåò äåëàòü ýòî, îí äåëàòü ýòî îáÿçàí.

Ó íàñ â 90-å ãîäû, â íà÷àëå 2000-õ áûëà î÷åíü ñåðü¸çíàÿ ñèòóàöèÿ â ñîöèàëüíîé ñôåðå, áûëà ðàçðóøåíà ñèñòåìà ñîöèàëüíîé çàùèòû, î÷åíü ìíîãî ïðîáëåì âîçíèêëî, ñ êîòîðûìè ìû äî ñèõ ïîð íå ìîæåì ýôôåêòèâíî, äî êîíöà ñïðàâèòüñÿ, â îáëàñòè çäðàâîîõðàíåíèÿ, ðàçâèòèÿ ñïîðòà.

Ïîëàãàþ, ÷òî çäîðîâûé îáðàç æèçíè – ýòî ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíàÿ âåùü, êîòîðàÿ ëåæèò â îñíîâå ðåøåíèÿ î÷åíü ìíîãèõ âàæíûõ ïðîáëåì, â òîì ÷èñëå è çäîðîâüÿ íàöèè. Íåâîçìîæíî ñ ïîìîùüþ òàáëåòîê ðåøèòü ïðîáëåìû çäîðîâüÿ ìèëëèîíîâ ëþäåé. Íóæíî, ÷òîáû ó ëþäåé áûë íàâûê, áûëî ïðèñòðàñòèå, áûëà ìîäà íà çäîðîâûé îáðàç æèçíè, íà çàíÿòèÿ ôèçêóëüòóðîé è ñïîðòîì.

Ïîýòîìó ÿ ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ïðàâèëüíî, êîãäà íå òîëüêî ÿ, íî è äðóãèå ìîè êîëëåãè: è Ïðåäñåäàòåëü Ïðàâèòåëüñòâà, ìèíèñòðû, äåïóòàòû Ãîñóäàðñòâåííîé Äóìû, êîãäà îíè, êàê ñåãîäíÿ, äîïóñòèì, ïðèíèìàþò ó÷àñòèå â ìàðàôîíñêîì çàáåãå íà äâóõ äèñòàíöèÿõ, êîãäà îíè ïîñåùàþò ôóòáîëüíûå ìàò÷è, êîãäà ñàìè ïðèíèìàþò ó÷àñòèå â ñïîðòèâíûõ ñîðåâíîâàíèÿõ. Âîò îòñþäà â òîì ÷èñëå – íå òîëüêî, íî â òîì ÷èñëå – çàðîæäàþòñÿ èíòåðåñû è ëþáîâü ìèëëèîíîâ ëþäåé ê çàíÿòèÿì ôèçè÷åñêîé êóëüòóðîé è ñïîðòîì. Ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ýòî ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíàÿ âåùü.

×.Ðîóç: Ìîãó ëè ÿ ïðåäïîëîæèòü, ÷òî Âàì íðàâèòñÿ ýòîò îáðàç ñèëüíîãî ÷åëîâåêà ñ ãîëûì òîðñîì, ñêà÷óùåãî âåðõîì íà ëîøàäè? Âû õîòèòå, ÷òîáû èìåííî òàêèì ñèëüíûì ëèäåðîì Âàñ âèäåëè ëþäè â Ðîññèè è âî âñåì ìèðå?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß õî÷ó, ÷òîáû âñå çíàëè: Ðîññèÿ â öåëîì è ðóêîâîäñòâî Ðîññèè – ýòî íå÷òî ýôôåêòèâíîå è äîëæíûì îáðàçîì ôóíêöèîíèðóþùåå, ÷òî ýòî âñ¸ âìåñòå: è ñàìà ñòðàíà, èíñòèòóòû ñòðàíû, ðóêîâîäèòåëè ñòðàíû – ëþäè çäîðîâûå, äååñïîñîáíûå è ãîòîâûå ê ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâó ñ íàøèìè ïàðòí¸ðàìè ãäå áû òî íè áûëî: è â îáëàñòè ñïîðòà, è â îáëàñòè ïîëèòèêè, è â îáëàñòè âçàèìîîòíîøåíèé â áîðüáå ñ ñîâðåìåííûìè óãðîçàìè. ß äóìàþ, ÷òî çäåñü, êðîìå ïîçèòèâà, íè÷åãî íåò.

×.Ðîóç: Óìåñòíî ïðåäïîëîæèòü, ÷òî Âû âåðèòå â èäåþ ñèëüíîãî ëèäåðà, ïîñêîëüêó Âû âåðèòå â èäåþ ñèëüíîãî öåíòðàëüíîãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà, è Âû óæå ðàññêàçàëè, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò â îòñóòñòâèå ñèëüíîãî ðóêîâîäñòâà.

Èíòåðåñóåò ëè Âàñ Àìåðèêà â áîëüøåé ñòåïåíè, ÷åì ëþáîå äðóãîå ãîñóäàðñòâî, ñ êîòîðûì Âû âçàèìîäåéñòâóåòå? ß çàäàþ ýòîò âîïðîñ, ïîñêîëüêó, êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë, Âû èíòåðåñíû ÑØÀ. À Âàì èíòåðåñíà Àìåðèêà? Íàáëþäàåòå ëè Âû çà ïîëèòè÷åñêèìè äåáàòàìè â Ðåñïóáëèêàíñêîé ïàðòèè?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íàáëþäàòü òàê, ÷òîáû ñîâñåì óæå â åæåäíåâíîì ðåæèìå, – íåò. Íî, êîíå÷íî, íàì èíòåðåñíî, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ. Ýòî êðóïíåéøàÿ ìèðîâàÿ äåðæàâà, ýêîíîìè÷åñêèé è âîåííûé ëèäåð ñåãîäíÿ – ýòî î÷åâèäíûé ôàêò. Ïîýòîìó Àìåðèêà îêàçûâàåò îãðîìíîå âëèÿíèå íà ñèòóàöèþ â ìèðå â öåëîì. Êîíå÷íî, íàì íåáåçûíòåðåñíî, ÷òî òàì ïðîèñõîäèò. Ìû âíèìàòåëüíî çà ýòèì íàáëþäàåì, íî òàê, ÷òîáû â åæåäíåâíîì ðåæèìå ñëåäèòü çà ïåðèïåòèÿìè âíóòðèïîëèòè÷åñêîé àìåðèêàíñêîé æèçíè, – ýòî ñêîðåå íåò, ÷åì äà.

×.Ðîóç: Åñëè áû Âû ïîñìîòðåëè ýòè äåáàòû, òî óçíàëè áû, ÷òî ãîâîðèò Äîíàëüä Òðàìï. Ýòîò èçâåñòíûé ÷åëîâåê âûñêàçûâàåò æåëàíèå âñòðåòèòüñÿ ñ Âàìè, ñ÷èòàÿ, ÷òî âû ïîëàäèòå.

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, ýòî ÿ ñëûøàë. Ìû áóäåì ðàäû ëþáûì êîíòàêòàì ñ áóäóùèì ïðåçèäåíòîì Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, êòî áû ýòî íè áûë. Ëþáîé ÷åëîâåê, êîòîðûé ïîëó÷èò äîâåðèå àìåðèêàíñêîãî íàðîäà, ìîæåò ðàññ÷èòûâàòü íà òî, ÷òî ìû áóäåì ñ íèì ðàáîòàòü.

×.Ðîóç: Ìàðêî Ðóáèî – îäèí èç êàíäèäàòîâ íà ïîñò Ïðåçèäåíòà ÑØÀ îò Ðåñïóáëèêàíñêîé ïàðòèè – ãîâîðèò î Âàñ íå ñàìûå ëåñòíûå âåùè. Íàïðèìåð, â õîäå ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ äåáàòîâ îí íàçâàë Âàñ ãàíãñòåðîì, ÷òî âûãëÿäèò êàê íàïàäêè íà Ðîññèþ â öåëîì.

Â.Ïóòèí: Êàê ÿ ìîãó áûòü ãàíãñòåðîì, êîãäà ÿ ðàáîòàë â ÊÃÁ? Ýòî ñîâåðøåííî íå ñîîòâåòñòâóåò äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè.

×.Ðîóç: ×òî Âàì áîëüøå âñåãî íðàâèòñÿ â Àìåðèêå?

Â.Ïóòèí: Òâîð÷åñêèé ïîäõîä ê ðåøåíèþ ñòîÿùèõ ïåðåä Àìåðèêîé ïðîáëåì, îòêðûòîñòü è ðàñêðåïîù¸ííîñòü – ýòî äà¸ò âîçìîæíîñòü ðàñêðûòü âíóòðåííèé ïîòåíöèàë ëþäåé. ß äóìàþ, ÷òî â çíà÷èòåëüíîé ñòåïåíè áëàãîäàðÿ ýòîìó Àìåðèêà äîáèëàñü òàêèõ ïîòðÿñàþùèõ óñïåõîâ â ñâî¸ì ðàçâèòèè.

×.Ðîóç: Ðîññèÿ ïåðâîé çàïóñòèëà ñïóòíèê, äî òîãî, êàê ýòî ñäåëàëè ÑØÀ. Ó âàñ âåëèêîëåïíûå àñòðîôèçèêè. Ó âàñ åñòü âûäàþùèåñÿ äîñòèæåíèÿ â îáëàñòè ìåäèöèíû, íàóêè, ôèçèêè. Íàäååòåñü ëè Âû, ÷òî, áëàãîäàðÿ Âàì, Ðîññèÿ ñìîæåò âîññòàíîâèòü ñâî¸ ëèäåðñòâî âî âñ¸ì ìèðå, âäîõíîâèòüñÿ íà èííîâàöèè, î êîòîðûõ Âû ñåé÷àñ ãîâîðèëè â îòíîøåíèè Àìåðèêè? È êàê Âû ýòî ìîæåòå ñäåëàòü?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íàì íóæíî íå óòðàòèòü òî, ÷òî áûëî ñîçäàíî çà ïðåäûäóùèå äåñÿòèëåòèÿ, è ñîçäàòü êàê ðàç òå ñàìûå óñëîâèÿ, î êîòîðûõ ÿ ãîâîðèë, äëÿ ðàñêðûòèÿ, ïîëíîãî ðàñêðûòèÿ ïîòåíöèàëà íàøèõ ãðàæäàí. Ó íàñ î÷åíü òàëàíòëèâûé íàðîä, ó íàñ î÷åíü õîðîøàÿ áàçà, î êîòîðîé Âû óïîìÿíóëè. Âû ñêàçàëè, ÷òî Âû ëþáèòå ðîññèéñêóþ êóëüòóðó, – ýòî æå âåäü òîæå îãðîìíûé áàçèñ äëÿ âíóòðåííåãî ðàçâèòèÿ.

Ñåé÷àñ òîëüêî ÷òî Âû óïîìÿíóëè î äîñòèæåíèÿõ ðîññèéñêîé íàóêè âî ìíîãèõ îáëàñòÿõ. Íàì íóæíî ýòî ïîääåðæàòü è ñîçäàòü óñëîâèÿ äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ëþäè ñâîáîäíî ðàçâèâàëèñü, ÷óâñòâîâàëè ñåáÿ â ñîñòîÿíèè ðåàëèçîâàòü ñâîé ïîòåíöèàë. Óâåðåí, ïðîñòî àáñîëþòíî óáåæä¸í â òîì, ÷òî ýòî ñêàæåòñÿ íà ïîñòóïàòåëüíîì ðàçâèòèè íàóêè è íàóêî¸ìêèõ òåõíîëîãèé, è âñåé ýêîíîìèêè ñòðàíû.

×.Ðîóç: Íåäàâíî â Âåðõîâíîì Ñóäå Àìåðèêè áûëè îáñóæäåíèÿ ïðàâ ãîìîñåêñóàëèñòîâ, â òîì ÷èñëå, êîíñòèòóöèîííîãî ïðàâà íà ãåé-ñâàäüáû. Êàê Âû äóìàåòå, ýòî õîðîøàÿ èäåÿ ïðèçíàòü âñòóïëåíèå â îäíîïîëûé áðàê êîíñòèòóöèîííûì ïðàâîì?

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû çíàåòå, ýòî âåäü íåîäíîðîäíàÿ ãðóïïà ëþäåé. Íåêîòîðûå ïðåäñòàâèòåëè íåòðàäèöèîííîé ñåêñóàëüíîé îðèåíòàöèè, íàïðèìåð, âûñòóïàþò ïðîòèâ óñûíîâëåíèÿ òàêèìè ïàðàìè äåòåé, òî åñòü ñàìè ïðîòèâ. ×òî, îíè ìåíåå äåìîêðàòè÷íû, ÷åì äðóãèå ïðåäñòàâèòåëè ýòîãî ñîîáùåñòâà, ãåé-ñîîáùåñòâà? Íàâåðíîå, íåò. Ïðîñòî ó ëþäåé òàêîé âçãëÿä íà âåùè. Âîò ïðîáëåìà ñåêñóàëüíûõ ìåíüøèíñòâ â Ðîññèè, îíà íàðî÷èòî èçâíå ïî ïîëèòè÷åñêèì ñîîáðàæåíèÿì ðàçäóòà. Íèêàêîé ïðîáëåìû ó íàñ íåò.

×.Ðîóç: Ðàçúÿñíèòå, êàê ýòî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñåé÷àñ ðàçúÿñíþ. Õîðîøî èçâåñòíî, ÷òî â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ, â ÷åòûð¸õ øòàòàõ ÑØÀ, ãîìîñåêñóàëèçì ñ÷èòàåòñÿ óãîëîâíûì ïðåñòóïëåíèåì. Õîðîøî ýòî èëè ïëîõî, ìû çíàåì ñåé÷àñ ðåøåíèå Êîíñòèòóöèîííîãî Ñóäà, íî ýòà ïðîáëåìà åù¸ ïîëíîñòüþ íå èçæèòà, îíà íå âûòðàâëåíà èç çàêîíîäàòåëüñòâà Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ îêîí÷àòåëüíî. Ó íàñ ýòîãî íåò.

×.Ðîóç: Âû ýòî îñóæäàåòå?

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, ÿ ýòî îñóæäàþ. Ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî íèêàêîãî óãîëîâíîãî ïðåñëåäîâàíèÿ, è ëþáîãî äðóãîãî ïðåñëåäîâàíèÿ, óùåìëåíèÿ â ïðàâàõ ëþäåé ïî íàöèîíàëüíîìó ïðèíöèïó, ïî ýòíè÷åñêîìó ïðèíöèïó, ïî ñåêñóàëüíîé îðèåíòàöèè áûòü íå ìîæåò â ñîâðåìåííîì ìèðå. Ýòî äîëæíî áûòü àáñîëþòíî èñêëþ÷åíî.

Âîò ó íàñ ýòîãî è íåò. Ó íàñ áûëà, åñëè ìíå ïàìÿòü íå èçìåíÿåò, â Óãîëîâíîì êîäåêñå åù¸ ÐÑÔÑÐ 120-ÿ ñòàòüÿ, êîòîðàÿ ïðåñëåäîâàëà çà ãîìîñåêñóàëèçì. Ìû âñ¸ ýòî îòìåíèëè, íèêàêèõ ïðåñëåäîâàíèé è â ïîìèíå íåò. Ó íàñ ëþäè íåòðàäèöèîííîé îðèåíòàöèè ñïîêîéíî æèâóò, ðàáîòàþò, ïðîäâèãàþòñÿ ïî ñëóæáå, ïîëó÷àþò ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå íàãðàäû çà ñâîè äîñòèæåíèÿ â íàóêå, èñêóññòâå ëèáî â êàêèõ‑òî äðóãèõ îáëàñòÿõ, îðäåíà èì âðó÷àþò, ÿ ëè÷íî âðó÷àþ.

Ðå÷ü î ÷¸ì øëà? Ðå÷ü øëà î çàïðåòå ïðîïàãàíäû ãîìîñåêñóàëèçìà ñðåäè íåñîâåðøåííîëåòíèõ. ß íè÷åãî íåäåìîêðàòè÷íîãî â ýòîì ïðàâîâîì àêòå íå âèæó. Ëè÷íî ÿ èñõîæó èç òîãî, ÷òî äåòåé íàäî îñòàâèòü â ïîêîå, íàäî äàòü èì âîçìîæíîñòü âûðàñòè, îñîçíàòü ñåáÿ è ðåøèòü ïðî ñåáÿ, êòî ýòîò ÷åëîâåê, êåì îí ñåáÿ ñ÷èòàåò, ìóæ÷èíîé èëè æåíùèíîé, õî÷åò îí æèòü íîðìàëüíûì, åñòåñòâåííûì áðàêîì ëèáî íåòðàäèöèîííûì – âîò è âñ¸.

ß íèêàêîãî óùåìëåíèÿ ëþäåé íåòðàäèöèîííîé ñåêñóàëüíîé îðèåíòàöèè çäåñü ïðîñòî íå íàáëþäàþ. Ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ýòî ïðîñòî öåëåíàïðàâëåííî ðàçäóòî ñ öåëüþ êàêîé‑òî ãðóïïû ëþäåé ñîçäàòü, ñäåëàòü èç Ðîññèè îáðàç âðàãà. Ïî ïîëèòè÷åñêèì ñîîáðàæåíèÿì – êàê îäíà èç ëèíèé àòàê ïðîòèâ Ðîññèè.

×.Ðîóç: Îòêóäà ýòè íàïàäêè?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñî ñòîðîíû òåõ, êòî ýòî äåëàåò. Ïîñìîòðèòå, êòî ýòî äåëàåò.

×.Ðîóç: Òî åñòü, ñîãëàñíî Âàøåé òî÷êè çðåíèÿ, â Ðîññèè ïðàâà ãîìîñåêñóàëèñòîâ è îäíîïîëûå áðàêè ïðèçíàþòñÿ â òîé æå ñòåïåíè, êàê è â ÑØÀ? Òàêîâà Âàøà ïîçèöèÿ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìû íå òîëüêî ïðèçíàåì, ìû ýòî [ïðàâî] îáåñïå÷èâàåì.  Ðîññèè îáåñïå÷åíû ðàâíûå ïðàâà äëÿ âñåõ, â òîì ÷èñëå è äëÿ ëþäåé íåòðàäèöèîííîé ñåêñóàëüíîé îðèåíòàöèè.

×.Ðîóç: Ñëåäóþùèé âîïðîñ – ïðî ñèòóàöèþ íà Óêðàèíå, ìû óæå îáñóæäàëè ýòó òåìó ðàíåå. Ìíîãèå ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî â ðåçóëüòàòå ïðîèçîøåäøèõ ñîáûòèé íà Óêðàèíå è â Êðûìó, ÑØÀ è Çàïàä ââåëè ñàíêöèè, íàí¸ñøèå óðîí Ðîññèè. Ïðè ýòîì âûñêàçûâàåòñÿ ìíåíèå, ÷òî ñòðåìëåíèå Ìîñêâû áûòü «ñèëîé äîáðà» â Ñèðèè è ìèðå ìîæåò íåêèì îáðàçîì îòâëå÷ü âíèìàíèå îò ïðîáëåìû óêðàèíñêîãî êðèçèñà.

Â.Ïóòèí: ×òîáû îòâëå÷ü âíèìàíèå îò óêðàèíñêîé ïðîáëåìû, ýòî Âû èìååòå â âèäó? Íàøè äåéñòâèÿ â Ñèðèè íàïðàâëåíû íà òî, ÷òîáû îòâëå÷ü âíèìàíèå îò Óêðàèíû?

Íåò, êîíå÷íî, ýòî íå òàê. Óêðàèíà – ýòî îòäåëüíàÿ áîëüøàÿ ïðîáëåìà, â òîì ÷èñëå è äëÿ íàñ, ñåé÷àñ ñêàæó ïî÷åìó. Ñèðèÿ – ýòî äðóãàÿ ïðîáëåìà, ÿ Âàì óæå ñêàçàë, ìû íå õîòåëè äåçèíòåãðàöèè, íå õîòèì çàïîëíåíèÿ òåððîðèñòàìè, íå õîòèì âîçâðàùåíèÿ òåõ ëþäåé, êîòîðûå ñåé÷àñ òàì âîþþò íà ñòîðîíå òåððîðèñòîâ, â Ðîññèþ. Òàì öåëûé êîìïëåêñ ïðîáëåì.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ Óêðàèíû – ýòî îñîáàÿ ñèòóàöèÿ. Óêðàèíà – ñàìàÿ áëèçêàÿ ê íàì ñòðàíà. Ìû âñ¸ âðåìÿ ãîâîðèëè, ÷òî Óêðàèíà – áðàòñêàÿ ñòðàíà, òàê è åñòü. Ýòî íå ïðîñòî ñëàâÿíñêèé íàðîä, ýòî ñàìûé áëèçêèé ê ðóññêèì íàðîä: ÿçûê î÷åíü ïîõîæ, êóëüòóðà, îáùàÿ èñòîðèÿ, îáùàÿ ðåëèãèÿ è òàê äàëåå.

×òî, ÿ ñ÷èòàþ, àáñîëþòíî íåïðèåìëåìûì äëÿ íàñ? Ðåøåíèå âîïðîñîâ, â òîì ÷èñëå ñïîðíûõ âîïðîñîâ, âíóòðèïîëèòè÷åñêèõ âîïðîñîâ â ðåñïóáëèêàõ áûâøåãî Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà ñ ïîìîùüþ òàê íàçûâàåìûõ «öâåòíûõ» ðåâîëþöèé, ñ ïîìîùüþ ïåðåâîðîòîâ è íåêîíñòèòóöèîííûõ ñïîñîáîâ ñìåùåíèÿ äåéñòâóþùåé âëàñòè. Âîò ýòî àáñîëþòíî íåïðèåìëåìî.

Íàøè ïàðòí¸ðû â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ íå ñêðûâàþò, ÷òî ïîääåðæèâàëè òåõ, êòî âûñòóïàë ïðîòèâ Ïðåçèäåíòà ßíóêîâè÷à. Íåêîòîðûå ïðÿìî ñêàçàëè, ÷òî ÷óòü ëè íå íåñêîëüêî ìèëëèàðäîâ [íà ýòî] èñòðàòèëè.

×.Ðîóç: Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ÷òî Ñîåäèí¸ííûå Øòàòû ñâÿçàíû ñî ñâåðæåíèåì Âèêòîðà ßíóêîâè÷à, êîãäà îí áûë âûíóæäåí ñáåæàòü â Ðîññèþ?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß çíàþ îá ýòîì òî÷íî.

×.Ðîóç: Îòêóäà Âàì ýòî èçâåñòíî?

Â.Ïóòèí: Î÷åíü ïðîñòî. Ëþäè, êîòîðûå æèâóò íà Óêðàèíå, ó íàñ ñ íèìè òûñÿ÷è ñîâìåñòíûõ âñÿêèõ êîíòàêòîâ è òûñÿ÷è ñâÿçåé. È ìû çíàåì, êòî, ãäå, êîãäà âñòðå÷àëñÿ, ðàáîòàë ñ òåìè ëþäüìè, êîòîðûå ñâåðãàëè ßíóêîâè÷à, êàê èõ ïîääåðæèâàëè, ñêîëüêî ïëàòèëè, êàê ãîòîâèëè, íà êàêèõ òåððèòîðèÿõ, â êàêèõ ñòðàíàõ è êòî áûëè ýòè èíñòðóêòîðû. Ìû âñ¸ çíàåì.

Äà, ñîáñòâåííî ãîâîðÿ, íàøè ïàðòí¸ðû àìåðèêàíñêèå ýòîãî óæå è íå ñêðûâàþò. Îíè ïðÿìî ãîâîðÿò, ÷òî, äà, ìû ïîääåðæèâàëè, ãîòîâèëè, äåíåã èñòðàòèëè ñêîëüêî. Íàçûâàþò áîëüøèå öèôðû – äî ïÿòè ìèëëèàðäîâ, òàì ñ÷¸ò èä¸ò íà ìèëëèàðäû äîëëàðîâ. Ïîýòîìó çäåñü ñåêðåòà íåò, íèêòî ñ ýòèì óæå íå ñïîðèò.

×.Ðîóç: Âû óâàæàåòå ñóâåðåíèòåò Óêðàèíû?

Â.Ïóòèí: Êîíå÷íî. Íî ìû õîòåëè áû, ÷òîáû è äðóãèå ñòðàíû óâàæàëè ÷óæîé ñóâåðåíèòåò, â òîì ÷èñëå è Óêðàèíû. À óâàæàòü ñóâåðåíèòåò – ýòî çíà÷èò íå äîïóñêàòü ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ ïåðåâîðîòîâ, àíòèêîíñòèòóöèîííûõ äåéñòâèé è íåçàêîííîãî ñìåùåíèÿ ëåãèòèìíûõ âëàñòåé. Âîò ýòîãî àáñîëþòíî íåëüçÿ äîïóñêàòü íèãäå.

×.Ðîóç: Êàêèì îáðàçîì ïðîèñõîäèò ñìåùåíèå ëåãèòèìíîé âëàñòè? Êàêîâà ðîëü Ðîññèè â îáíîâëåíèè âëàñòè íà Óêðàèíå?

Â.Ïóòèí: À Ðîññèÿ íèêîãäà íå ïðèíèìàëà, íå ïðèíèìàåò è íå ñîáèðàåòñÿ ïðèíèìàòü ó÷àñòèÿ â äåéñòâèÿõ, íàïðàâëåííûõ íà ñâåðæåíèå ëåãèòèìíîé âëàñòè. ß ñåé÷àñ ãîâîðþ î äðóãîì – î òîì, ÷òî åñëè êòî‑òî äåëàåò ýòî, òî ðåçóëüòàò î÷åíü òÿæ¸ëûé.  Ëèâèè – ýòî ïîëíàÿ äåçèíòåãðàöèÿ ãîñóäàðñòâà, â Èðàêå – ýòî çàïîëíåíèå ýòîé òåððèòîðèè òåððîðèñòàìè, â Ñèðèè ê ýòîìó æå, ïîõîæå, èä¸ò, â Àôãàíèñòàíå ñèòóàöèÿ âû çíàåòå êàêàÿ.

×òî íà Óêðàèíå ïðîèçîøëî? Ãîñóäàðñòâåííûé ïåðåâîðîò íà Óêðàèíå ïðèâ¸ë ê ãðàæäàíñêîé âîéíå, ïîòîìó ÷òî, äà, äîïóñòèì, ìíîãèå ãðàæäàíå Óêðàèíû íå äîâåðÿëè óæå Ïðåçèäåíòó ßíóêîâè÷ó. Íî íàäî áûëî ëåãèòèìíî èäòè íà âûáîðû, èçáðàòü äðóãîãî ãëàâó ãîñóäàðñòâà, à íå óñòðàèâàòü ãîñïåðåâîðîòû. À ïîñëå òîãî, êàê ãîñïåðåâîðîò ñîñòîÿëñÿ, êòî‑òî ýòî ïîääåðæàë, êîìó‑òî ýòî ïîíðàâèëîñü, à êîìó‑òî – íåò. È ñ òåìè, êîìó ýòî íå ïîíðàâèëîñü, íà÷àëè ðàçãîâàðèâàòü ñ ïîçèöèè ñèëû. Ðåçóëüòàò – ãðàæäàíñêàÿ âîéíà.

×.Ðîóç: À ÷òî Âû ãîòîâû ñäåëàòü â îòíîøåíèè Óêðàèíû?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñåé÷àñ ñêàæó. Åñëè âîïðîñ Âàø çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â ýòîì, òî ÿ ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî è Ðîññèÿ, è äðóãèå ó÷àñòíèêè ìåæäóíàðîäíîãî ñîîáùåñòâà, â òîì ÷èñëå òå, êîòîðûå ïðèíèìàþò áîëåå äåÿòåëüíîå ó÷àñòèå â ðàçðåøåíèè óêðàèíñêîãî êðèçèñà, èìåÿ â âèäó Ôåäåðàòèâíóþ Ðåñïóáëèêó Ãåðìàíèÿ è Ôðàíöèþ, òàê íàçûâàåìóþ «íîðìàíäñêóþ ÷åòâ¸ðêó», ðàçóìååòñÿ, ïðè àêòèâíîì ó÷àñòèè Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, ó íàñ ñåé÷àñ ïî ýòîìó íàïðàâëåíèþ èíòåíñèôèöèðîâàëñÿ äèàëîã, âñå ìû äîëæíû ñòðåìèòüñÿ ê ïîëíîìó è áåçóñëîâíîìó èñïîëíåíèþ òåõ äîãîâîð¸ííîñòåé, êîòîðûå äîñòèãíóòû áûëè â Ìèíñêå. Íàäî èñïîëíÿòü Ìèíñêèå äîãîâîð¸ííîñòè.

×.Ðîóç: Â÷åðà Äæîí Êåððè ãîâîðèë îá ýòîì ïîñëå ïåðåãîâîðîâ ñ Ìèíèñòðîì èíîñòðàííûõ äåë Âåëèêîáðèòàíèè. Ïîñëå Ñèðèè îí óïîìÿíóë Óêðàèíó è ïîä÷åðêíóë íåîáõîäèìîñòü ïîëíîãî âûïîëíåíèÿ ìèíñêèõ äîãîâîðåííîñòåé. Çíà÷èò, Âû è Äæîí Êåððè ñîãëàñíû ñ òåì, ÷òî íóæíî âûïîëíÿòü ìèíñêèå ñîãëàøåíèÿ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ïîëíîñòüþ.

À òåïåðü Âû íàáåð¸òåñü òåðïåíèÿ, âûñëóøàåòå ìåíÿ è íå áóäåòå ìåíÿ ïðåðûâàòü äâå ìèíóòû. Íî ÿ Âàñ ïðîøó, ÷òîá Âû äàëè [â ýôèð] òî, ÷òî ÿ ñêàæó, áåç êóïþð. Ñìîæåòå ýòî ñäåëàòü? Ó âàñ õâàòèò âëàñòè, ÷òîáû äàòü ýòî áåç êóïþð?

×.Ðîóç: Äà.

Â.Ïóòèí: ×òî îçíà÷àåò èñïîëíåíèå Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèé? Òàì íåñêîëüêî ïóíêòîâ, ÿ ñêàæó î ãëàâíîì. Ãëàâíîå, ÷òî íóæíî ñäåëàòü äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ñèòóàöèÿ íà Óêðàèíå èçìåíèëàñü êàðäèíàëüíûì îáðàçîì, – ïðîâåñòè ïîëèòè÷åñêèå ïðåîáðàçîâàíèÿ.

Ïåðâîå: íóæíî ïðèíÿòü èçìåíåíèÿ â Êîíñòèòóöèè, òàê çàïèñàíî â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ. È òåïåðü ñàìîå ãëàâíîå: â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ íàïèñàíî, ÷òî ýòî äîëæíî áûòü ñäåëàíî ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì. Ýòî ïðèíöèïèàëüíûé âîïðîñ. Íà Óêðàèíå ñåé÷àñ ïðèíèìàþòñÿ èçìåíåíèÿ â Êîíñòèòóöèè, ïåðâîå ÷òåíèå ïðîøëî, íî íèêàêîãî ñîãëàñîâàíèÿ ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì íå áûëî è íåò, è íèêòî äàæå íå ñîáèðàåòñÿ ñ íèìè íè÷åãî ñîãëàñîâûâàòü. Ïóíêò îäèí.

Òåïåðü ïóíêò äâà: íóæíî – ïðÿìî â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ çàïèñàíî ­– èìïëåìåíòèðîâàòü çàêîí, óæå ïðèíÿòûé íà Óêðàèíå, îá îñîáåííîñòÿõ ìåñòíîãî ñàìîóïðàâëåíèÿ íà ýòèõ òåððèòîðèÿõ. Çàêîí ïðèíÿò, íî åãî ââåäåíèå îòëîæåíî. Ìèíñêèå ñîãëàøåíèÿ íå âûïîëíåíû.

Òðåòüå: íóæíî áûëî ïðèíÿòü çàêîí îá àìíèñòèè. Êàê ìîæíî âåñòè äèàëîã ñ ëþäüìè èç Äîíáàññà, èç Ëóãàíñêà è Äîíåöêà, åñëè âñå îíè íàõîäÿòñÿ ïîä óãîëîâíûì ïðåñëåäîâàíèåì, ïðîòèâ âñåõ èç íèõ âîçáóæäåíû óãîëîâíûå äåëà? Ïîýòîìó â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ íàïèñàíî: ïðèíÿòü çàêîí îá àìíèñòèè. Îí íå ïðèíÿò.

È åñòü åù¸ ðÿä ïóíêòîâ. Âîò, íàïðèìåð, ïðîâåñòè ìåñòíûå âûáîðû, íàïèñàíî: ïðèíÿòü çàêîí î ìåñòíûõ âûáîðàõ ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì. Íà Óêðàèíå ïðèíÿëè çàêîí î ìåñòíûõ âûáîðàõ, ïðåäñòàâèòåëè Äîíåöêà è Ëóãàíñêà òðè ðàçà íàïðàâëÿëè ñâîè ïðåäëîæåíèÿ ïî ýòîìó çàêîíó, ñ íèìè äàæå íèêòî íå ñòàë ðàçãîâàðèâàòü, õîòÿ â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ íàïèñàíî: ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì.

Ïîýòîìó ÿ î÷åíü óâàæàþ è äàæå ëþáëþ ãîñïîäèíà Êåððè, îí î÷åíü îïûòíûé äèïëîìàò, îí ìíå ðàññêàçûâàë, ÷òî îí â ñâî¸ âðåìÿ åù¸ ïðîòèâ «çâ¸çäíûõ âîéí» âûñòóïàë, è ïðàâèëüíî äåëàë. Âîò åñëè áû îí ïðèíèìàë ðåøåíèå ïî ÏÐÎ, ìîæåò áûòü, íå áûëî áû ñåé÷àñ êîíôëèêòà ó íàñ ïî ïðîòèâîðàêåòíîé îáîðîíå. Íî çäåñü îí ÿâíî ïåðåä¸ðãèâàåò. Åñëè îäíà ñòîðîíà, êèåâñêèå ñåãîäíÿøíèå âëàñòè ãîâîðÿò: ìû ñäåëàëè òî, ìû ñäåëàëè ýòî, ìû âûïîëíèëè Ìèíñêèå ñîãëàøåíèÿ – ýòî íå ñîîòâåòñòâóåò äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè, ïîòîìó ÷òî âñ¸ ýòî äîëæíî ñäåëàíî áûòü ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì. Íèêàêîãî ñîãëàñîâàíèÿ íåò.

À ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ èìïëåìåíòàöèè ïðèíÿòîãî óæå çàêîíà îá îñîáåííîñòÿõ ìåñòíîãî ñàìîóïðàâëåíèÿ íà ýòèõ òåððèòîðèÿõ, â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ âîîáùå íàïèñàíî: â òå÷åíèå 30 ñóòîê. Íè÷åãî íå ñäåëàíî, îïÿòü îòëîæåíî âñòóïëåíèå â ñèëó ýòîãî çàêîíà.

Ïîýòîìó ìû âûñòóïàåì çà ïîëíîå è áåçóñëîâíîå èñïîëíåíèå Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèé îáåèìè ñòîðîíàìè, íî íå òàê, êàê ýòî èíòåðïðåòèðóåòñÿ îäíîé èç ñòîðîí, à òàê, êàê òàì çàïèñàíî.

×.Ðîóç: ß Âàì ïðåäîñòàâèë ÷åòûðå ìèíóòû, ÿ Âàñ íå ïðåðûâàë, âåðíî?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß âèäåë, ÷òî Âû òåðïåëè èç ïîñëåäíèõ ñèë. ß Âàì î÷åíü áëàãîäàðåí.

×.Ðîóç: Äà, ìíå ïîíðàâèëèñü Âàøè çàÿâëåíèÿ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Íà ñàìîì äåëå òî, ÷òî ÿ ãîâîðþ, – ýòî ïðàâäà.

×.Ðîóç: Àìåðèêàíöû óâèäÿò Âàñ òàêèì, êàêèì íèêîãäà ðàíüøå íå âèäåëè. Ñåãîäíÿ Âû î÷åíü ìíîãî ãîâîðèòå ñ íàìè, îáùàåòåñü. Ýòî, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, î÷åíü õîðîøî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñïàñèáî. Íà ñàìîì äåëå òî, ÷òî ÿ ñêàçàë ñåé÷àñ, ýòî àáñîëþòíàÿ ïðàâäà, ïîíèìàåòå? Íå ìîæåò áûòü ðåøåíèÿ âîïðîñîâ ïî ýòîìó ñîãëàøåíèþ, åñëè êèåâñêèå âëàñòè äåëàþò âñ¸ â îäíîñòîðîííåì ïîðÿäêå, õîòÿ â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ íàïèñàíî: ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ Äîíáàññîì. Ýòî ïðèíöèïèàëüíûé âîïðîñ.

×.Ðîóç: Âû äåéñòâèòåëüíî òàê ñ÷èòàåòå?

Â.Ïóòèí: Òàì íå÷åãî ñ÷èòàòü, òàì íàïèñàíî íà áóìàãå, íàäî òîëüêî ïðî÷èòàòü. Íàïèñàíî: ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì, – ÷èòàéòå äîêóìåíò. À ÿ âàì ãîâîðþ, ñîãëàñîâàíèÿ íåò, âîò è âñ¸. Íàïèñàíî: ââåñòè çàêîí îá îñîáîì ñòàòóñå â òå÷åíèå 30 ñóòîê. È îí íå ââåä¸í. Êòî íå âûïîëíÿåò Ìèíñêèå ñîãëàøåíèÿ?

×.Ðîóç: Âû óïîìÿíóëè Ãîññåêðåòàðÿ, ñ÷èòàþùåãî âàæíûì íå òîëüêî âûïîëíåíèå Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèé, íî è íåîáõîäèìûé îòêàç ñåïàðàòèñòîâ îò èäåè ïðîâåäåíèÿ íåçàâèñèìûõ âûáîðîâ. Òàê ñêàçàë Êåððè â÷åðà.

Â.Ïóòèí: ß çíàþ ïîçèöèþ íàøèõ àìåðèêàíñêèõ äðóçåé è âîò ÷òî õî÷ó íà ýòî ñêàçàòü. ß òîëüêî ÷òî óïîìÿíóë, âèæó, ÷òî âûíóæäåí ïîâòîðèòü. ×òî êàñàåòñÿ ìåñòíûõ âûáîðîâ, â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ íàïèñàíî: ïðèíÿòü çàêîí î ìåñòíûõ âûáîðàõ ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì. ×òî ïðîèçîøëî â äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè? Êèåâñêèå âëàñòè ïðèíÿëè çàêîí ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíî, íå ñîãëàñîâûâàÿ åãî ñ Äîíåöêîì è Ëóãàíñêîì, íåñìîòðÿ íà òî ÷òî òå òðèæäû íàïðàâëÿëè ñâîé ïðîåêò. Âîîáùå íèêàêîãî äèàëîãà, ñàìè ïðèíÿëè áåç êîíñóëüòàöèé ñ íèìè.

Áîëåå òîãî, â çàêîíå, êîòîðûé ïðèíÿò Êèåâîì, íàïèñàíî, ÷òî íà ýòèõ òåððèòîðèÿõ âûáîðû âîîáùå íå ïðîâîäÿòñÿ. Êàê ýòî ïîíÿòü? Ïî ñóòè, îíè êàê áû ñàìè ñïðîâîöèðîâàëè ïðåäñòàâèòåëåé Äîíåöêà è Ëóãàíñêà ê òîìó, ÷òîáû òå íàçíà÷èëè ñîáñòâåííûå âûáîðû. Âîò è âñ¸.

Òàê ÷òî ìû ãîòîâû ñ ãîñïîäèíîì Êåððè âñ¸ ýòî îáñóæäàòü, òîëüêî íóæíî òîãäà ïîáóäèòü îáå ñòîðîíû âûïîëíÿòü òî, ïîä ÷åì îíè ïîäïèñàëèñü, à íå âûäàâàòü çà áëàãî òî, ÷òî îíè äåëàþò ïî ñîáñòâåííîé èíèöèàòèâå.

×.Ðîóç: ß Âàñ ïîíèìàþ, õîòåë áû ïðîñòî ïîâòîðèòü, ïîñêîëüêó Ãîññåêðåòàðü Êåððè ïîä÷åðêíóë ìîìåíò îòíîñèòåëüíî âûáîðîâ. Äà, ÿ Âàñ äåéñòâèòåëüíî ïîíèìàþ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ãîññåêðåòàðü Êåððè â äàííîì ñëó÷àå, êàê äèïëîìàò, õèòðèò, íî ýòî íîðìàëüíî, ýòî îòíîñèòñÿ ê åãî ðàáîòå. Âñå äèïëîìàòû õèòðÿò, è îí òîæå.

×.Ðîóç: Âû áû íèêîãäà òàê íå ïîñòóïèëè, ïðàâèëüíî?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß áû íå ñòàë òàê äåëàòü. ß íå äèïëîìàò.

×.Ðîóç: À êòî Âû? Êàê Âû ñåáÿ âîñïðèíèìàåòå?

Â.Ïóòèí: ×åëîâåê, ãðàæäàíèí Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè, ðóññêèé.

×.Ðîóç: Âû òàêæå ñêàçàëè, ÷òî ñàìîé óæàñíîé òðàãåäèåé ïðîøëîãî âåêà áûë ðàñïàä Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà. Îäíàêî íåêîòîðûå ëþäè ñìîòðÿò íà Óêðàèíó è Ãðóçèþ, äóìàÿ, ÷òî Âû õîòèòå âîññîçäàòü íå ñîâåòñêóþ èìïåðèþ, à ñêîðåå – ñôåðó âëèÿíèÿ, êîòîðóþ Ðîññèÿ, ïî Âàøåìó ìíåíèþ, çàñëóæèâàåò èç‑çà ñâÿçåé, ñóùåñòâîâàâøèõ âñå ýòè ãîäû.

Ïî÷åìó Âû óëûáàåòåñü? (Ñìåõ.)

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû ìåíÿ ðàäóåòå. Íàñ âñ¸ âðåìÿ ïîäîçðåâàþò â êàêèõ‑òî àìáèöèÿõ è âñ¸ âðåìÿ ñòàðàþòñÿ ëèáî ÷òî‑òî èñêàçèòü, ëèáî ÷òî‑òî íåäîãîâîðèòü.

ß äåéñòâèòåëüíî ñêàçàë, ÷òî ñ÷èòàþ ðàñïàä Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà îãðîìíîé òðàãåäèåé XX âåêà. Çíàåòå ïî÷åìó? Ïðåæäå âñåãî ïîòîìó, ÷òî â îäíî÷àñüå çà ãðàíèöàìè Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè îêàçàëèñü 25 ìèëëèîíîâ ðóññêèõ ëþäåé. Îíè æèëè â ðàìêàõ åäèíîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà, è âñåãäà òðàäèöèîííî Ñîâåòñêèé Ñîþç íàçûâàëñÿ Ðîññèåé, Ñîâåòñêîé Ðîññèåé, íî ýòî è áûëà áîëüøàÿ Ðîññèÿ. Ïîòîì íåîæèäàííî ñîñòîÿëñÿ ðàçâàë Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà çà íî÷ü, ïî ñóòè, è îêàçàëîñü, ÷òî â áûâøèõ ðåñïóáëèêàõ Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà ïðîæèâàþò ëþäè, ðóññêèå ëþäè, â êîëè÷åñòâå 25 ìèëëèîíîâ ÷åëîâåê. Îíè æèëè â åäèíîé ñòðàíå – âäðóã îêàçàëèñü çà ãðàíèöåé. Ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå, ñêîëüêî ïðîáëåì âîçíèêëî?

Âî‑ïåðâûõ, áûòîâûå âîïðîñû, ðàçúåäèíåíèå ñåìåé, ýêîíîìè÷åñêèå ïðîáëåìû, ñîöèàëüíûå ïðîáëåìû – ïðîñòî íå ïåðå÷èñëèòü âñåãî. À Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ÷òî ýòî íîðìàëüíî, ÷òî 25 ìèëëèîíîâ ÷åëîâåê, ðóññêèõ ëþäåé, îêàçàëèñü âäðóã çà ãðàíèöåé? Ðóññêèå îêàçàëèñü ñàìîé áîëüøîé ðàçäåë¸ííîé íàöèåé â ìèðå ñåãîäíÿ. Ýòî íå ïðîáëåìà? Äëÿ Âàñ íåò, à äëÿ ìåíÿ ïðîáëåìà.

×.Ðîóç: È ÷òî Âû õîòèòå ðåøèòü ýòó ïðîáëåìó?

Â.Ïóòèí: À ìû õîòèì â ðàìêàõ ñîâðåìåííûõ öèâèëèçîâàííûõ ïðîöåññîâ ñîõðàíèòü êàê ìèíèìóì îáùåå ãóìàíèòàðíîå ïðîñòðàíñòâî, ñäåëàòü òàê, ÷òîáû íå âîçíèêàëè ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå ãðàíèöû, ÷òîáû ëþäè ìîãëè ñâîáîäíî ìåæäó ñîáîé îáùàòüñÿ, ÷òîáû ðàçâèâàëàñü ñîâìåñòíàÿ ýêîíîìèêà, èñïîëüçóÿ òå ïðåèìóùåñòâà, êîòîðûå íàì äîñòàëèñü îò áûâøåãî Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà.

Êàêèå ýòè ïðåèìóùåñòâà? Îáùàÿ èíôðàñòðóêòóðà, åäèíûé æåëåçíîäîðîæíûé òðàíñïîðò, åäèíàÿ äîðîæíàÿ ñåòü, åäèíàÿ ýíåðãîñèñòåìà è, íàêîíåö, çäåñü ÿ íå ïîáîþñü ñêàçàòü ýòîãî, âåëèêèé ðóññêèé ÿçûê, êîòîðûé îáúåäèíÿåò âñå áûâøèå ðåñïóáëèêè Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà è äà¸ò íàì î÷åâèäíûå êîíêóðåíòíûå ïðåèìóùåñòâà ïðè ïðîäâèæåíèè ðàçëè÷íûõ èíòåãðàöèîííûõ ïðîåêòîâ íà òåððèòîðèè ïîñòñîâåòñêîãî ïðîñòðàíñòâà.

Âîò Âû, íàâåðíîå, ñëûøàëè, ìû ñîçäàëè ñíà÷àëà Òàìîæåííûé ñîþç, à çàòåì åãî ïðåîáðàçîâàëè â Åâðàçèéñêèé ýêîíîìè÷åñêèé ñîþç. Êîãäà ëþäè ñâîáîäíî îáùàþòñÿ, ñâîáîäíî ïåðåìåùàþòñÿ è ðàáî÷àÿ ñèëà, è òîâàðû, è óñëóãè, è êàïèòàëû, íåò ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ ðàçäåëèòåëüíûõ ëèíèé, êîãäà ó íàñ åñòü îáùèå ïðàâèëà ïðàâîâîãî ðåãóëèðîâàíèÿ, ñêàæåì, â ñîöèàëüíîé ñôåðå, òî âîò ýòîãî âïîëíå äîñòàòî÷íî. Ëþäè äîëæíû ÷óâñòâîâàòü ñåáÿ ñâîáîäíî.

×.Ðîóç: Íî áûëî ëè Âàì íåîáõîäèìî èñïîëüçîâàòü âîåííóþ ñèëó, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû âûïîëíèòü ýòó çàäà÷ó?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íåò, êîíå÷íî.

×.Ðîóç: Ìíîãèå ãîâîðÿò î âîåííîì ïðèñóòñòâèè Ðîññèè íà ãðàíèöàõ Óêðàèíû, è íåêîòîðûå äàæå óòâåðæäàþò, ÷òî ðîññèéñêèå âîéñêà íàõîäÿòñÿ íà òåððèòîðèè ñîñåäíåé ñòðàíû.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ó âàñ åñòü âîåííîå ïðèñóòñòâèå â Åâðîïå?

×.Ðîóç: Äà.

Â.Ïóòèí:  Åâðîïå íàõîäèòñÿ òàêòè÷åñêîå ÿäåðíîå îðóæèå Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, íå áóäåì îá ýòîì çàáûâàòü. Ýòî ÷òî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî âû îêêóïèðîâàëè Ãåðìàíèþ èëè íå îòêàçàëèñü îò îêêóïàöèè Ãåðìàíèè ïîñëå Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíû, à òîëüêî ïðåîáðàçîâàëè îêêóïàöèîííûå âîéñêà â âîéñêà ÍÀÒÎ? Ìîæíî âåäü è òàê ïîñìîòðåòü. Ìû æå îá ýòîì íå ãîâîðèì. À åñëè ìû äåðæèì ñâîè âîéñêà íà íàøåé òåððèòîðèè íà ãðàíèöå ñ êàêèì‑òî ãîñóäàðñòâîì, âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ÷òî ýòî óæå ïðåñòóïëåíèå?

×.Ðîóç: ß íå ãîâîðèë î ïðåñòóïëåíèè.

Â.Ïóòèí: Äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû îñóùåñòâëÿòü òå ïðîöåññû, î êîòîðûõ ÿ ñêàçàë, åñòåñòâåííîé ýêîíîìè÷åñêîé, ãóìàíèòàðíîé, ñîöèàëüíîé èíòåãðàöèè ñîâñåì íå íóæíû íèêàêèå âîîðóæ¸ííûå ñèëû.

Ìû ñîçäàëè Òàìîæåííûé ñîþç è Åâðàçèéñêèé ýêîíîìè÷åñêèé ñîþç íå ñ ïîìîùüþ ñèëû, à ñ ïîìîùüþ ïîèñêà êîìïðîìèññîâ. Ýòî áûë íåïðîñòîé ïðîöåññ, ñëîæíûé, ìíîãîëåòíèé, ñ ïîìîùüþ äîãîâîð¸ííîñòåé è ïîèñêà êîìïðîìèññà, íà îñíîâå ïðèåìëåìûõ äëÿ âñåõ óñëîâèé â ðàñ÷¸òå íà òî, ÷òî ìû ñîçäàäèì äëÿ íàøèõ ýêîíîìèê, äëÿ íàøèõ ëþäåé áîëåå ýôôåêòèâíûå êîíêóðåíòíûå ïðåèìóùåñòâà íà ìèðîâûõ ðûíêàõ è âîîáùå â ìèðîâîì ïðîñòðàíñòâå.

×.Ðîóç: Äàâàéòå ïåðåéäåì ê ñëåäóþùåìó âîïðîñó – Ïðèáàëòèéñêèå ãîñóäàðñòâà è Âàøè íàìåðåíèÿ â îòíîøåíèè íèõ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìû áû õîòåëè ñòðîèòü ñ íèìè äðóæåñòâåííûå, ïàðòí¸ðñêèå îòíîøåíèÿ. Òàì ïðîæèâàåò î÷åíü ìíîãî ðóññêèõ ëþäåé åù¸ ïîñëå âðåì¸í Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà. Òàì óùåìëÿþòñÿ èõ ïðàâà. Âû çíàåòå, ÷òî âî ìíîãèõ ïðèáàëòèéñêèõ ãîñóäàðñòâàõ èçîáðåòåíî íå÷òî íîâîå â ìåæäóíàðîäíîì ïðàâå.

 ìåæäóíàðîäíîì ïðàâå äî ñèõ ïîð áûëî ÷òî ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ ãðàæäàíñòâà? Ãðàæäàíèí, èíîñòðàíåö, ÷åëîâåê áåç ãðàæäàíñòâà è áèïàòðèäû, òî åñòü ëþäè ñ äâîéíûì ãðàæäàíñòâîì.  ïðèáàëòèéñêèõ ðåñïóáëèêàõ èçîáðåëè íå÷òî íîâîå. Çíàåòå ÷òî? Íåãðàæäàíàìè íàçûâàþò ëþäåé, êîòîðûå ïðîæèâàþò äåñÿòèëåòèÿìè íà òåððèòîðèè ïðèáàëòèéñêèõ ãîñóäàðñòâ è ëèøåíû öåëîãî ðÿäà ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ ïðàâ. Îíè íå ìîãóò ïðèíÿòü ó÷àñòèÿ â âûáîðíûõ êàìïàíèÿõ, îíè îãðàíè÷åíû â ñâîèõ ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ è ñîöèàëüíûõ ïðàâàõ. È âñå îá ýòîì ïîìàëêèâàþò, êàê áóäòî òàê è íàäî.

Êîíå÷íî, ýòî íå ìîæåò íå âûçûâàòü ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåé ðåàêöèè. Íî ÿ èñõîæó èç òîãî, ÷òî íàøè êîëëåãè è â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ, è â Åâðîïåéñêîì ñîþçå âñ¸‑òàêè áóäóò èñõîäèòü èç ñîâðåìåííûõ ïðèíöèïîâ ãóìàíèòàðíîãî ïðàâà è áóäóò îáåñïå÷èâàòü ïîëèòè÷åñêèå ñâîáîäû è ïðàâà âñåõ ëþäåé, â òîì ÷èñëå è òåõ ëþäåé, êîòîðûå æèâóò íà òåððèòîðèè ïðèáàëòèéñêèõ ãîñóäàðñòâ ïîñëå êðóøåíèÿ Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà.

À ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ ýêîíîìè÷åñêèõ ñâÿçåé, ó íàñ óñòîé÷èâûå, î÷åíü ðàçâåòâë¸ííûå êîíòàêòû ñ ýòèìè ñòðàíàìè.

Âû çíàåòå, íî ìåíÿ âñ¸‑òàêè íåêîòîðûå âåùè, êàê áû ýòî ïîìÿã÷å ñêàçàòü, ñìóùàþò.

×.Ðîóç: Ñìóùàþò?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñìóùàþò è îãîð÷àþò.

Âîò ìû âñå ãîâîðèì î íåîáõîäèìîñòè ñáëèæåíèÿ ïîçèöèé, î íåîáõîäèìîñòè èíòåãðàöèè â îáëàñòè ýêîíîìèêè, â ïîëèòè÷åñêîé ñôåðå.

Âîò ïðèáàëòèéñêèå ñòðàíû – ÿ óæå óïîìèíàë î òîì, ÷òî ó íàñ ñ [âðåì¸í] Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà îñòàëîñü îáùåå ýíåðãîñíàáæåíèå, ýíåðãîñèñòåìà, – îíè, åñòåñòâåííî, âõîäèëè â îáùóþ ýíåðãîñèñòåìó Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà.

Òåïåðü ÷òî äåëàþò? Âñå âðîäå ãîâîðÿò î ñáëèæåíèè Ðîññèè, Åâðîñîþçà. ×òî íà ñàìîì äåëå, íà ïðàêòèêå ïðîèñõîäèò? Òåïåðü èç îáùåé ñèñòåìû ýíåðãîñíàáæåíèÿ áûâøåãî Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà ïëàíèðóåòñÿ âû÷ëåíèòü ïðèáàëòèéñêèå ãîñóäàðñòâà è âêëþ÷èòü èõ â åâðîïåéñêóþ ñèñòåìó.

×òî äëÿ íàñ ýòî ÷òî îçíà÷àåò íà ïðàêòèêå? Ýòî çíà÷èò, ÷òî ìåæäó íàøèìè íåêîòîðûìè îáëàñòÿìè, Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè, ïîÿâëÿþòñÿ çîíû, ãäå ó íàñ íå áóäåò ëèíèé ýëåêòðîïåðåäà÷è, ïîòîìó ÷òî ðàíüøå [ýëåêòðîñíàáæåíèå] øëî ïî êîëüöó ÷åðåç ïðèáàëòèéñêèå ñòðàíû. È òåïåðü ìû äîëæíû áóäåì çàíîâî, èñòðàòèâ ìèëëèàðäû äîëëàðîâ, – çàíîâî ñòðîèòü ýòó ñèñòåìó, òàê æå êàê è ìèëëèàðäû äîëëàðîâ äîëæíû áóäóò èñòðàòèòü íàøè åâðîïåéñêèå ïàðòí¸ðû, ÷òîáû âêëþ÷èòü ïðèáàëòèéñêèå ñòðàíû â ñâî¸ ýíåðãåòè÷åñêîå êîëüöî. Çà÷åì?

Åñëè ìû äåéñòâèòåëüíî, íå íà ñëîâàõ, à íà äåëå, ñòðåìèìñÿ ê êàêîé‑òî ñîâìåñòíîé ðàáîòå è ê èíòåãðàöèè, çà÷åì ýòî âñ¸ äåëàòü? È òàê ïðîèñõîäèò ïî î÷åíü ìíîãèì íàïðàâëåíèÿì: ãîâîðÿò îäíî, à äåëàþò íà ñàìîì äåëå äðóãîå.

Íó à ÿ èñõîæó èç òîãî, ÷òî ýòî âñ¸ ïðîáëåìû ðîñòà, è â êîíå÷íîì èòîãå âñ¸‑òàêè çäðàâûé ñìûñë – åñëè íå çäåñü, òî ïî äðóãèì âåùàì – áóäåò òîðæåñòâîâàòü. À âñå ìû çàèíòåðåñîâàíû â òîì, ÷òîáû ðàçâèâàòüñÿ îòêðûòî, áåç âñÿêîãî ïðåäóáåæäåíèÿ, ïðèáàëòèéñêèå ñòðàíû â òîì ÷èñëå, à ìîæåò áûòü, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, è äëÿ íèõ ýòî âàæíåå, ÷åì äëÿ ñàìîé Ðîññèè.

Íó âîò, ñêàæåì, îäíà èç ýòèõ ñòðàí – Ëèòâà. Òàì åù¸ â ñîâåòñêîå âðåìÿ çíàåòå ñêîëüêî íàñåëåíèÿ áûëî? 3 ìèëëèîíà 400 òûñÿ÷ ÷åëîâåê. Íåáîëüøàÿ ñòðàíà, íåáîëüøàÿ ðåñïóáëèêà. Ñåé÷àñ, ÿ ïîñìîòðåë ñïðàâêè ïîñëåäíèå, – 1 ìèëëèîí 400 òûñÿ÷. Ãäå ëþäè? Áîëüøå ïîëîâèíû ãðàæäàí ïîêèíóëè ñòðàíó.

Âû ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå, åñëè áû áîëüøå ïîëîâèíû àìåðèêàíöåâ âûåõàëè ñ òåððèòîðèè Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ? Êàòàñòðîôà.

Ýòî ãîâîðèò î òîì, ÷òî ñâÿçè, êîòîðûå óòðà÷åíû, ïðåæäå âñåãî â ýêîíîìèêå, íåãàòèâíûì îáðàçîì ñêàçûâàþòñÿ íà âñåõ íàñ. ß ñåé÷àñ õî÷ó ñêàçàòü, è íà Ðîññèè òîæå. Ïîýòîìó ãëóáîêî óáåæä¸í: ìû äîëæíû óéòè îò ôîáèé ïðîøëîãî, ñìîòðåòü â áóäóùåå è, äåéñòâóÿ íà îñíîâå ìåæäóíàðîäíîãî ïðàâà, âûñòðàèâàòü äîáðîñîñåäñêèå è ðàâíîïðàâíûå îòíîøåíèÿ.

×.Ðîóç: È, êîíå÷íî, íàì íåîáõîäèìî ñíÿòü ñàíêöèè.

Â.Ïóòèí: Åñëè êîìó‑òî íðàâèòñÿ ðàáîòàòü ñ ïîìîùüþ ñàíêöèé, ïîæàëóéñòà, ìîæíî. Íî ýòî âðåìå
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A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 16 2015, 22:56:13     :

http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50704
Îòâåòû íà âîïðîñû æóðíàëèñòîâ ïî èòîãàì ñàììèòà «Ãðóïïû äâàäöàòè»
16 íîÿáðÿ 2015 ãîäà
17:40
Àíòàëüÿ

Â.Ïóòèí: Äîáðûé âå÷åð, óâàæàåìûå äðóçüÿ, äàìû è ãîñïîäà!

Ïðåæäå ÷åì ìû íà÷í¸ì ñåðèþ âîïðîñîâ è îòâåòîâ, õî÷ó ïîáëàãîäàðèòü Ïðåçèäåíòà Òóðöèè ãîñïîäèíà Ýðäîãàíà è âñåõ íàøèõ òóðåöêèõ êîëëåã çà òî, ÷òî îíè òàê ïðîôåññèîíàëüíî ïîäîøëè ê îðãàíèçàöèè ðàáîòû «äâàäöàòêè», ñîçäàëè î÷åíü õîðîøóþ äîâåðèòåëüíóþ è îòêðîâåííóþ ðàáî÷óþ àòìîñôåðó äëÿ îáñóæäåíèÿ òåõ òåì, ðàäè êîòîðûõ «äâàäöàòêà» è ñîáðàëàñü.

Õî÷ó ïîáëàãîäàðèòü âñåõ ãðàæäàí Òóðöèè çà äîáðîæåëàòåëüíûé ïîäõîä ê íàøåé ðàáîòå è çà ïîìîùü, êîòîðóþ ìû ÷óâñòâîâàëè ïðàêòè÷åñêè íà êàæäîì øàãó.

Âîïðîñ: Êàê ÿ ïîíèìàþ, îäíîé èç öåíòðàëüíûõ òåì ñàììèòà ñòàëà áîðüáà ñ òåððîðèçìîì. Ïîíÿòíî, ÷òî áåç ýôôåêòèâíîé áîðüáû ïðîòèâ ôèíàíñèðîâàíèÿ òåððîðèñòîâ ïîáåäèòü ýòó ïðîáëåìó íå óäàñòñÿ. Îáñóæäàëèñü ëè êàêèå‑òî êîíêðåòíûå ìåðû íà ñàììèòå?  êàêîì êëþ÷å øëî îáñóæäåíèå ýòèõ ìåð? Äî ÷åãî â èòîãå äîãîâîðèëèñü?

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, ðàçóìååòñÿ, ýòà òåìà áûëà îäíîé èç êëþ÷åâûõ – áîðüáà ñ òåððîðèçìîì, îñîáåííî ïîñëå òðàãè÷åñêèõ ñîáûòèé ñ çàõâàòîì çàëîæíèêîâ è ãèáåëüþ ëþäåé â Ïàðèæå. Íî, êîíå÷íî, ìû âñ¸ ïîíèìàåì è ãîâîðèëè î òîì, ÷òî íóæíî ïðåñåêàòü ïóòè ôèíàíñèðîâàíèÿ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêîé äåÿòåëüíîñòè.

ß ïðèâîäèë ïðèìåðû, ñâÿçàííûå ñ íàøèìè äàííûìè î ôèíàíñèðîâàíèè ôèçè÷åñêèìè ëèöàìè ðàçëè÷íûõ ïîäðàçäåëåíèé ÈÃÈËà â ðàçíûõ ñòðàíàõ. Ôèíàíñèðîâàíèå, êàê ìû óñòàíîâèëè, èä¸ò èç 40 ñòðàí, ïðè÷¸ì â òîì ÷èñëå èç ñòðàí «äâàäöàòêè». Îáñóæäàëè ýòó òåìó.

Îáñóæäàëè íåîáõîäèìîñòü èñïîëíåíèÿ ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåé ðåçîëþöèè Ñîâåòà Áåçîïàñíîñòè ÎÎÍ, êîòîðàÿ, êñòàòè, áûëà ïðèíÿòà ïî èíèöèàòèâå Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè, ïî ïðåäîòâðàùåíèþ ôèíàíñèðîâàíèÿ òåððîðèçìà è ïî ïðåñå÷åíèþ íåçàêîííîé òîðãîâëè ïðåäìåòàìè èñêóññòâà, êîãäà òåððîðèñòû ãðàáÿò ìóçåè íà òåõ òåððèòîðèÿõ, êîòîðûå çàõâàòûâàþò, è ïî ïðåäîòâðàùåíèþ íåçàêîííîé ïðîäàæè è ïîëó÷åíèÿ äîõîäîâ îò íåôòè è íåôòåïðîäóêòîâ.

Áîëåå òîãî, ÿ äàæå ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàë íàøèì êîëëåãàì íàøè ñíèìêè èç êîñìîñà è ñ ñàìîë¸òîâ, íà êîòîðûõ ÿñíî ïîêàçàíî è âèäíî, êàêèå ìàñøòàáû ïðèîáðåòàåò ýòà íåçàêîííàÿ òîðãîâëÿ íåôòüþ è íåôòåïðîäóêòàìè. Êîëîííû àâòîìàøèí-çàïðàâùèêîâ ðàñòÿíóòû íà äåñÿòêè êèëîìåòðîâ, òàê ÷òî ñ âûñîòû 4–5 òûñÿ÷ ìåòðîâ îíè óõîäÿò çà ãîðèçîíò. Âûãëÿäèò ýòî ïðîñòî êàê íåôòåïðîâîäíàÿ ñèñòåìà.

Ìû ñ êîëëåãàìè, êîíå÷íî, ýòîò âîïðîñ îáñóæäàëè, è íàäåþñü, ÷òî ìû è äàëüøå ïðîäîëæèì ýòó ðàáîòó, êîòîðàÿ, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, ÿâëÿåòñÿ ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíîé äëÿ áîðüáû ñ òåððîðîì.

Âîïðîñ: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, â îñíîâå «äâàäöàòêè» âñåãäà áûëè ýêîíîìè÷åñêèå âîïðîñû. Êàêèå èç ýêîíîìè÷åñêèõ òåì, êîòîðûå Âû îáñóæäàëè ñ ëèäåðàìè, Âû áû äëÿ ñåáÿ âûäåëèëè? È ïîäâîïðîñ: Âû çàíèìàëèñü ýêîíîìèêîé è íà ïîëÿõ ñàììèòà, âñòðå÷àëèñü ñ ãëàâîé ÌÂÔ. Î ÷åì âû ãîâîðèëè, êàêîâû èòîãè ïåðåãîâîðîâ è â ÷åì ñóòü ïðåäëîæåíèé, êîòîðûå Âû ñäåëàëè ïî äîëãîâîé ïðîáëåìå Óêðàèíû ÌÂÔ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Äåéñòâèòåëüíî «äâàäöàòêà» – ýòî, ïðåæäå âñåãî, ýêîíîìè÷åñêèé ñàììèò, ñàììèò äëÿ îáñóæäåíèÿ ýêîíîìè÷åñêèõ âîïðîñîâ. Ïîýòîìó â öåíòðå êðîìå âîïðîñîâ áîðüáû ñ òåððîðîì, ÷òî åñòåñòâåííî ïîñëå ïîñëåäíèõ ñîáûòèé è àêòèâèçàöèè òåððîðèñòîâ íà ðàçëè÷íûõ íàïðàâëåíèÿõ, ìû, êîíå÷íî, îáñóæäàëè ýêîíîìè÷åñêèå ïðîáëåìû. Ñðåäè íèõ ÿ áû âûäåëèë èíâåñòèöèîííûå âîïðîñû è ïðîáëåìû, ïðåæäå âñåãî ñâÿçàííûå ñ èíâåñòèöèÿìè â êðóïíûå èíôðàñòðóêòóðíûå ïðîåêòû è ñ ïîääåðæêîé ìàëîãî è ñðåäíåãî áèçíåñà, çàòåì âîïðîñû áîðüáû ñ óõîäîì îò íàëîãîîáëîæåíèÿ, ñ íåçàêîííûì ñîêðàùåíèåì íàëîãîîáëàãàåìîé áàçû. Íó è òðåòüÿ òåìà – ýòî âîâëå÷åíèå â òðóäîâóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòü ëþäåé ñòàðøåãî ïîêîëåíèÿ è âîîáùå ïðîáëåìû, ñâÿçàííûå ñ ðûíêîì òðóäà. Çäåñü äâà àñïåêòà: è óìåíüøåíèå êîëè÷åñòâà áåçðàáîòíûõ ñðåäè ìîëî䏿è («äâàäöàòêà» ñòàâèò ïåðåä ñîáîé çàäà÷ó ñâåñòè ýòî ê 15 ïðîöåíòàì â áëèæàéøèå íåñêîëüêî ëåò), è âîâëå÷åíèå, êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë, â òðóäîâóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòüþ ëþäåé ñòàðøåãî ïîêîëåíèÿ, ýòî òàê íàçûâàåìàÿ ñåðåáðÿíàÿ ýêîíîìèêà.

Äåéñòâèòåëüíî, âî âñåõ ðàçâèòûõ ñòðàíàõ íàáëþäàåòñÿ ïðîöåññ ñòàðåíèÿ íàñåëåíèÿ. Êîëè÷åñòâî òðóäîâûõ ðåñóðñîâ ñîêðàùàåòñÿ, êîëè÷åñòâî ëþäåé, êîòîðûå îáåñïå÷èâàþò âûïëàòû â ïåíñèîííûå ôîíäû, ñîêðàùàåòñÿ, à êîëè÷åñòâî ëþäåé ïåíñèîííîãî âîçðàñòà óâåëè÷èâàåòñÿ. Ýòî, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, ÿâëÿåòñÿ óæå ñåãîäíÿ äîñòàòî÷íî îùóòèìûì âûçîâîì äëÿ ýêîíîìèê ðàçâèòûõ ñòðàí, è, áåçóñëîâíî, ìû íå ìîãëè íå îáñóæäàòü ýòó òåìó.

ß áû ñêàçàë åù¸, íàâåðíîå, è î òàêîé ïðîáëåìå, êàê ïðîáëåìà êëèìàòè÷åñêèõ èçìåíåíèé, êîòîðàÿ î÷åíü áëèçêî ïðèìûêàåò ê âîïðîñàì ðàçâèòèÿ ýêîíîìèêè è îáåñïå÷åíèÿ òåìïîâ ðîñòà ýêîíîìèêè.

Ïðî ÌÂÔ: ýòî îäíà èç îñòðûõ ïðîáëåì ñåãîäíÿøíåãî äíÿ è â íàøèõ âçàèìîîòíîøåíèÿõ ñ Óêðàèíîé, è òåìà, ïðîáëåìà, êîòîðàÿ î÷åíü àêòèâíî â ïîñëåäíèå ìåñÿöû îáñóæäàåòñÿ è ñ íàøèìè êîëëåãàìè ïî Ìåæäóíàðîäíîìó âàëþòíîìó ôîíäó.

Íàøè ïàðòí¸ðû ïî ÌÂÔ óáåæäàþò íàñ â òîì, ÷òî ìû ìîãëè áû ïîéòè íà ðåñòðóêòóðèçàöèþ óêðàèíñêîãî äîëãà â îáú¸ìå 3 ìèëëèàðäîâ äîëëàðîâ, êîòîðûé äîëæåí áûë áûòü âûïëà÷åí äî êîíöà ñëåäóþùåãî ìåñÿöà, äî êîíöà ýòîãî ãîäà, è óâåðÿþò íàñ â òîì, ÷òî ìû äîëæíû áûëè áû ïîéòè íàâñòðå÷ó Óêðàèíå è ïåðåíåñòè ýòîò ïëàò¸æ â îáú¸ìå 3 ìèëëèàðäîâ äîëëàðîâ íà ñëåäóþùèé ãîä. Óâåðÿþò íàñ â òîì, ÷òî ýòî è Óêðàèíå ïîìîæåò, è îáåñïå÷èò âûïëàòû Ðîññèè êàê êðåäèòîðó.

Ìû îáðàòèëè âíèìàíèå íàøèõ ïàðòí¸ðîâ íà òî, ÷òî íàø äîëã ÿâëÿåòñÿ íå ÷àñòíûì äîëãîì, ýòî ñóâåðåííûé äîëã, êîòîðûé ïðåäîñòàâëåí Óêðàèíå íà íåðûíî÷íûõ ïðèíöèïàõ, íà íåðûíî÷íûõ óñëîâèÿõ, ýòî ñóâåðåííûé äîëã óêðàèíñêîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà. Òåì íå ìåíåå è èìåííî äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû îáåñïå÷èòü ïîëó÷åíèå äåíåã, âîçâðàò ýòèõ äåíåã, è äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû íå ñòàâèòü Óêðàèíó â ñëîæíîå ïîëîæåíèå, ìû ñäåëàëè, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, íåîæèäàííîå ïðåäëîæåíèå íàøèì ïàðòí¸ðàì: ìû íå ïðîñòî ñîãëàñèëèñü íà ðåñòðóêòóðèçàöèþ óêðàèíñêîãî äîëãà, íî è ïðåäëîæèëè ëó÷øèå óñëîâèÿ ýòîé ðåñòðóêòóðèçàöèè, ÷åì îò íàñ ïðîñèë Ìåæäóíàðîäíûé âàëþòíûé ôîíä.

Íàñ ïðîñèëè ïåðåíåñòè ýòîò ïëàò¸æ â îáú¸ìå 3 ìèëëèàðäîâ íà ñëåäóþùèé ãîä. ß ñêàçàë, ÷òî ìû ãîòîâû ïîéòè íà áîëåå ãëóáîêóþ ðåñòðóêòóðèçàöèþ, ãîòîâû íà òî, ÷òîáû â ýòîì ãîäó âîîáùå íå ïîëó÷àòü íèêàêèõ äåíåã, à â ñëåäóþùåì ãîäó ïîëó÷èòü ìèëëèàðä, â 2016-ì; â 2017-ì – åù¸ ìèëëèàðä è â 2018-ì – åù¸ îäèí ìèëëèàðä. Íî íàøè ïàðòí¸ðû óâåðåíû, ÷òî êðåäèòîñïîñîáíîñòü óêðàèíñêîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà áóäåò ðàñòè è ó íàñ íåò îñíîâàíèé ñîìíåâàòüñÿ â òîì, ÷òî ìû ïîëó÷èì äàæå òðè ìèëëèàðäà â ñëåäóþùåì ãîäó. À åñëè ýòî òàê, òî íåò íèêàêèõ îïàñåíèé ó íàøèõ ïàðòí¸ðîâ âûñòàâèòü ãàðàíòèè ïî ýòîìó êðåäèòó. È ìû ïîïðîñèëè òàêèõ ãàðàíòèé ëèáî îò Ïðàâèòåëüñòâà Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, ëèáî îò Åâðîñîþçà, ëèáî îò îäíîãî èç ñîëèäíûõ ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ ôèíàíñîâûõ èíñòèòóòîâ. Ïðè÷¸ì ìû íàäååìñÿ, ÷òî ýòîò âîïðîñ áóäåò ðåø¸í äî íà÷àëà äåêàáðÿ òåêóùåãî ãîäà â ñèëó îïðåäåë¸ííîãî ãðàôèêà ðàáîòû Ìåæäóíàðîäíîãî âàëþòíîãî ôîíäà.

Ìû ïåðåãîâîðèëè ïî ýòîìó âîïðîñó è ñ ãîñïîæîé Ëàãàðä, è ñåãîäíÿ òàê, íà íîãàõ, íî âñ¸‑òàêè ïåðåãîâîðèëè è ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, è ñ ìèíèñòðîì ôèíàíñîâ ÑØÀ. Äîëæåí ñêàçàòü, ÷òî ýòî ïðåäëîæåíèå âîñïðèíÿòî ñ èíòåðåñîì. Ìû äîãîâîðèëèñü ñ ïàðòí¸ðàìè, ÷òî â ñàìîå áëèæàéøåå âðåìÿ ïðåäìåòíî ïîîáñóæäàåì äåòàëè íàøèõ ïðåäëîæåíèé.

Íó è íà ñàìîì‑òî äåëå, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, åñëè íàøè ïàðòí¸ðû ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî êðåäèòîñïîñîáíîñòü Óêðàèíû áóäåò âîçðàñòàòü, è íàñ â ýòîì óáåæäàþò, çíà÷èò, îíè âåðÿò â ýòî, à åñëè âåðÿò â ýòî, ïóñòü äàäóò ãàðàíòèè. À åñëè îíè íå ñïîñîáíû äàòü ãàðàíòèè, òî, çíà÷èò, îíè íå âåðÿò â áóäóùåå óêðàèíñêîé ýêîíîìèêè. Ýòî ïëîõî, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, è äëÿ íèõ, ïîñêîëüêó, ïîíÿòíî, îíè óáåæäàþò íàñ â òîì, ÷åãî íåò íà ñàìîì äåëå, ýòî ïëîõî è äëÿ íàøèõ óêðàèíñêèõ ïàðòí¸ðîâ.

Ìû äóìàåì, ÷òî íà ñàìîì äåëå âñ¸ ýòî âîçìîæíî, è ìû íå âèäèì íèêàêèõ ïðîáëåì â òîì, ÷òîáû ìû ðàçäåëèëè ðèñêè ñ íàøèìè ïàðòí¸ðàìè.

Âîïðîñ: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ýêñïåðòû ìíîãî ãîâîðèëè î ïðååìñòâåííîñòè ïîâåñòêè òóðåöêîãî ïðåäñåäàòåëüñòâà è ïîçàïðîøëîãîäíåãî ñàììèòà, êîòîðûé Ðîññèÿ ïðîâåëà â Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãå. Êàê Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ïîäòâåðäèëàñü ëè ýòà ïðååìñòâåííîñòü?

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, êîíå÷íî.

Âî‑ïåðâûõ, ìû î÷åíü àêòèâíî ðàáîòàëè â ðàìêàõ «äâàäöàòêè» íà ýêñïåðòíîì óðîâíå åù¸ â Ïåòåðáóðãå ïî ðåàëèçàöèè íàøèõ ïðåäëîæåíèé, ñâÿçàííûõ ñ ïðåäîòâðàùåíèåì óõîäà îò íàëîãîîáëîæåíèÿ è ñîêðàùåíèåì íàëîãîîáëàãàåìîé áàçû. Ìû â Ðîññèè ðàçðàáîòàëè öåëûé êîìïëåêñ ìåð è ïðèíÿëè äàæå, çíàåòå, ôåäåðàëüíûé çàêîí î êîíòðîëèðóåìûõ èíîñòðàííûõ êîìïàíèÿõ, î ÊÈÊàõ òàê íàçûâàåìûõ. Ýòî â ðàìêàõ òåõ äîãîâîð¸ííîñòåé, êîòîðûå áûëè äîñòèãíóòû â Ïåòåðáóðãå.

Íà ýêñïåðòíîì óðîâíå ìû àêòèâíî ðàáîòàëè ñ ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè ÎÝÑÐ è ðàçðàáîòàëè ïëàí äåéñòâèé ïî ýòîìó âîïðîñó. È ñåé÷àñ ìû òîæå îá ýòîì ãîâîðèëè, êîíñòàòèðîâàëè, ÷òî äîëæíû íà÷àòüñÿ ðàáîòû ïî åãî èìïëåìåíòàöèè. Ïîýòîìó â ýòîì ñìûñëå ìû âèäèì ïðååìñòâåííîñòü òóðåöêîãî ïðåäñåäàòåëüñòâà òàê æå, êàê è â âîïðîñàõ èíâåñòèöèé, âåäü ìû êàê ðàç îá ýòîì è ãîâîðèëè, îñîáåííî ïðèìåíèòåëüíî ê èíôðàñòðóêòóðíûì ïðîåêòàì.

Âîïðîñ: Î÷åíü ìíîãî ðàçãîâîðîâ ïîñëå ñîáûòèé, êîòîðûå áûëè â Ïàðèæå, î òîì, ÷òî ìîãóò ñîñòîÿòüñÿ êàðäèíàëüíûå èçìåíåíèÿ, êà÷åñòâåííûå èçìåíåíèÿ â îòíîøåíèÿõ ìåæäó Ðîññèåé è Çàïàäîì. Êàê Âû îòíîñèòåñü ê ýòîìó? Âû âèäåëè êàêèå‑íèáóäü êîíêðåòíûå äîêàçàòåëüñòâà òîìó íà âàøèõ ñåãîäíÿ âñòðå÷àõ, äîïóñòèì, ñ Ïðåìüåð-ìèíèñòðîì Âåëèêîáðèòàíèè èëè â÷åðà ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì ÑØÀ?

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû çíàåòå, ìû íèêîãäà íå îòêàçûâàëèñü îò äîáðûõ îòíîøåíèé ñ íàøèìè ïàðòí¸ðàìè íè íà Âîñòîêå, íè íà Çàïàäå. È òå îäíîñòîðîííèå ìåðû, îãðàíè÷èâàþùèå íàøå âçàèìîäåéñòâèå ïî ðàçëè÷íûì íàïðàâëåíèÿì, áûëè èíèöèèðîâàíû íå íàìè, à íàøèìè ïàðòí¸ðàìè. Åñëè ñåé÷àñ íàøè ïàðòí¸ðû ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî íàñòàëî âðåìÿ êàê‑òî ìåíÿòü íàøè îòíîøåíèÿ, òî ìû áóäåì ýòî ïðèâåòñòâîâàòü, ìû íèêîãäà íå îòêàçûâàëèñü îò ñîâìåñòíîé ðàáîòû è äâåðè íå çàêðûâàëè. Ìíå ïîêàçàëîñü, ÷òî, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå íà ýêñïåðòíîì óðîâíå, íà óðîâíå îáñóæäåíèÿ ïðîáëåì, åñòü ÿâíàÿ çàèíòåðåñîâàííîñòü â òîì, ÷òîáû âîçîáíîâèòü ðàáîòó ïî î÷åíü ìíîãèì íàïðàâëåíèÿì, âêëþ÷àÿ è ýêîíîìèêó, è ïîëèòèêó, è ñôåðû áåçîïàñíîñòè.

Ðåïëèêà: Â ïðîøëîì ãîäó ìíîãèå ñêàçàëè, ÷òî Âû áûëè èçãîåì «äâàäöàòêè» ñðåäè ëèäåðîâ íà «äâàäöàòêå». Â ýòîì ãîäó Âû óæå èãðîê èìåííî èç‑çà Ñèðèè. ×òî Âû äóìàåòå, åñëè Âû íåìíîãî ñîãëàñíû ñ òàêèì ðàçâîðîòîì ñîáûòèé?

Â.Ïóòèí:  ïðîøëîì ãîäó ÿ óæå ãîâîðèë îá ýòîì. Àâñòðàëèéñêèå êîëëåãè ñîçäàëè î÷åíü õîðîøèå óñëîâèÿ äëÿ ðàáîòû, âñ¸ áûëî î÷åíü êîððåêòíî, áåç âñÿêèõ ïðîáëåì. Íó, õîòåëîñü ïðîñòî òàê ïðåïîäíåñòè, âèäèìî, îáùåñòâåííîñòè, êàê Âû ñåé÷àñ ñêàçàëè, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ êàê‑òî èçîëèðîâàíà. Íåò, íè÷åãî ïîäîáíîãî íå áûëî.

È ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ òîãî ôàêòà, ÷òî ÿ ÷óòü ïîðàíüøå óåõàë, – ìîãó Âàì îòêðûòü ñåêðåò, ÿ, ïî‑ìîåìó, óæå îá ýòîì ãîâîðèë: ÿ ñäåëàë ýòî ïî òåõíè÷åñêèì ñîîáðàæåíèÿì, ÷òîáû íå ñòîÿòü â î÷åðåäè íà îòë¸ò, âîò è âñ¸. Íóæíî áûëî ëåòåòü äî Ìîñêâû 14 ÷àñîâ, ÷òî ëè, ïîýòîìó ìíå íóæíî áûëî ïðîñòî ñåñòü ïåðâûì â ñàìîë¸ò. ß çíàþ, êàê ïðîòîêîëüíûå ñëóæáû ðàñïèñûâàþò îòë¸ò, íóæíî áûëî òðè ÷àñà æäàòü, ÷òîáû ïîðàíüøå óåõàòü, âîò è âñ¸.

Íèêàêèõ íå áûëî ïðîáëåì íè òîãäà, íè ñåé÷àñ, õîòÿ, êîíå÷íî, îòíîøåíèÿ áûëè áîëåå íàïðÿæ¸ííûå, ÷åì ñåãîäíÿ. Ýòî, êîíå÷íî, ÷óâñòâóåòñÿ, ýòî ïðàâäà. Íî æèçíü èä¸ò âïåð¸ä, âñ¸ ìåíÿåòñÿ: âîçíèêàþò è íîâûå ïðîáëåìû, è íîâûå óãðîçû, íîâûå âûçîâû, êîòîðûå òðóäíî ðåøàòü â îäèíî÷êó êîìó áû òî íè áûëî. Íóæíî îáúåäèíÿòü óñèëèÿ.

Âîïðîñ: ß, íàâåðíîå, âåðíóñü ê òåìå òåððîðèçìà. Çà ïîñëåäíèé ìåñÿö ïî âñåìó ìèðó ïðîøëà ñåðèÿ òðàãè÷åñêèõ ñîáûòèé, ïðè÷¸ì â ñàìûõ ðàçíûõ òî÷êàõ: âçðûâû â Áàãäàäå, ïîäãîòîâêà ê âçðûâàì è òåðàêòàì â Ñòàìáóëå, êðóøåíèå íàøåãî ñàìîë¸òà (ÿ çíàþ, äà, ÷òî íåò ïîêà îêîí÷àòåëüíîé âåðñèè, ÷òî ýòî áûëî, íî, íà âçãëÿä âñåõ ýêñïåðòîâ, âåðîÿòíîñòü òåðàêòà èñêëþ÷àòü íåëüçÿ), ïîñëåäíèå êîøìàðíûå âçðûâû â Ïàðèæå.

Ôðàíöèÿ íà÷àëà ìàññèðîâàííóþ àòàêó, îïåðàöèþ â Ñèðèè. Êàæäûé ëèäåð íà ëþáîé âñòðå÷å è íà êàêèõ‑òî îáùèõ ñîáðàíèÿõ çäåñü ãîâîðèë î íåîáõîäèìîñòè îáúåäèíèòü óñèëèÿ. Êàê Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, âîçìîæíî ëè â ýòèõ óñëîâèÿõ ñîçäàòü äåéñòâèòåëüíî åäèíóþ àíòèòåððîðèñòè÷åñêóþ êîàëèöèþ è ÷òî îíà èç ñåáÿ äîëæíà ïðåäñòàâëÿòü, ïîòîìó ÷òî îá îáúåäèíåíèè óñèëèé ãîâîðÿò âñå, íî ïðè ýòîì íèêòî íå ãîâîðèò, êàêèå ó íå¸ äîëæíû áûòü ïàðàìåòðû, êàê îíà äîëæíà âûãëÿäåòü?

Â.Ïóòèí: Êîíå÷íî, ÿ äóìàþ, ÷òî ýòî íå òîëüêî ìîæíî, íî è íåîáõîäèìî ñäåëàòü. Åñëè Âû ïîìíèòå, ÿ æå ãîâîðèë îá ýòîì è íà Ãåíåðàëüíîé ñåññèè ÎÎÍ, ïîñâÿù¸ííîé 70-ëåòèþ ñîçäàíèÿ Îðãàíèçàöèè, èìåííî îá ýòîì âåäü ÿ è ãîâîðèë. È òðàãè÷åñêèå ñîáûòèÿ, êîòîðûå çà ýòèì ïîñëåäîâàëè, òîëüêî ïîäòâåðäèëè íàøó ïðàâîòó.

À êàê ýòî äîëæíî âûãëÿäåòü, íè÷åãî ñëîæíîãî çäåñü íåò: íóæíî íàëàäèòü êîíêðåòíóþ ðàáîòó ïî ïðåäîòâðàùåíèþ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèõ àêòîâ, ïðåäóïðåæäåíèþ è áîðüáå ñ òåððîðèçìîì â ãëîáàëüíîì ìàñøòàáå. Ìû æå ïðåäëîæèëè ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâî íà àíòèèãèëîâñêîì íàïðàâëåíèè. Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, íàøè ïàðòí¸ðû â Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòàõ íà ïåðâîì ýòàïå îòâåòèëè îòêàçîì. Îíè ïðîñòî â ïèñüìåííîì âèäå íàïðàâèëè íîòó, è òàì íàïèñàíî: «Ìû îòêëîíÿåì âàøå ïðåäëîæåíèå».

Íî, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, æèçíü ðàçâèâàåòñÿ î÷åíü áûñòðî è ÷àñòî ïðåïîäíîñèò íàì óðîêè. È ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî ñåé÷àñ âñ¸‑òàêè îñîçíàíèå òîãî, ÷òî ýôôåêòèâíî áîðîòüñÿ ìîæíî òîëüêî âìåñòå, ïðèõîäèò êî âñåì.

Ìû íèêîãäà íå çàêðûâàëè äâåðè äëÿ ýòîãî ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâà. Ïîëàãàåì, ÷òî îíî, ýòî ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâî, ìîæåò áûòü íàëàæåíî è íà ïîëèòè÷åñêîì óðîâíå, è íà óðîâíå ñïåöñëóæá, êîòîðûå äîëæíû àêòèâíåå äðóã ñ äðóãîì ðàáîòàòü, îáìåíèâàòüñÿ èíôîðìàöèåé, ïîìîãàòü äðóã äðóãó è ïðåäóïðåæäàòü äðóã äðóãà îá îïàñíîñòè.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ ñèðèéñêîãî íàïðàâëåíèÿ, òî çäåñü íàì íóæíî, ïðåæäå âñåãî, îïðåäåëèòüñÿ (è ñåé÷àñ ìèíèñòðû èíîñòðàííûõ äåë ðàáîòàþò íàä ýòèì), êîãî, êàêèå ãðóïïèðîâêè âñ¸‑òàêè ìû ñ÷èòàåì òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè îðãàíèçàöèÿìè, à êàêèå ìîæíî îòíåñòè ê âîîðóæ¸ííîé, íî âñ¸‑òàêè çäîðîâîé ÷àñòè ñèðèéñêîé îïïîçèöèè, è ñêîíöåíòðèðîâàòü íàøè óñèëèÿ â áîðüáå èìåííî ñ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè îðãàíèçàöèÿìè ñ òåì, ÷òîáû ñîçäàòü óñëîâèÿ äëÿ ïîëèòè÷åñêîãî óðåãóëèðîâàíèÿ ñèðèéñêîãî êðèçèñà.

Âîïðîñ: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ó Âàñ íà ïîëÿõ ñàììèòà ñîñòîÿëàñü âñòðå÷à ñ Ðåäæåïîì Òàéèïîì Ýðäîãàíîì. Ýòî áûë âàø ïåðâûé êîíòàêò ïîñëå âûáîðîâ â Òóðöèè, ãäå Ýðäîãàí è åãî ïàðòèÿ ïîäòâåðäèëè ñòàòóñ-êâî â ïîëèòè÷åñêîé æèçíè Òóðöèè.  ñâÿçè ñ ýòèì áûëî ëè ïî èòîãàì ýòèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ Âàì ñëîæíåå ãîâîðèòü ñ òóðåöêîé ñòîðîíîé, íàïðèìåð, ïðî òó æå Ñèðèþ? È ÷òî áóäåò ñ òàêèì ïðîåêòîì, êàê «Òóðåöêèé ïîòîê», è äðóãèìè ýíåðãåòè÷åñêèìè ïðîåêòàìè, î êîòîðûõ äîãîâàðèâàëèñü äàëüøå?

Â.Ïóòèí: Íåò, íèêàêèõ ñëîæíîñòåé ÿ íå ïî÷óâñòâîâàë. Ïîæàëóé, äàæå íàîáîðîò, ìû ìîæåì êîíñòàòèðîâàòü êàêîå‑òî ñáëèæåíèå íàøèõ ïîçèöèé. Ïðåçèäåíò Òóðöèè – ÷åëîâåê ïðÿìîé, îòêðûòûé. Ïåðåãîâîðùèê îí íåïðîñòîé, íî òåì íå ìåíåå îí î÷åíü îïûòíûé ÷åëîâåê è ÿâíî ñòðåìèòñÿ òîæå ê ïîèñêó ðåøåíèÿ. Ïîýòîìó ìû â÷åðà ñ íèì äîëãî ãîâîðèëè è ïî íàøèì äâóñòîðîííèì îòíîøåíèÿì, è ïî ñèðèéñêîìó óðåãóëèðîâàíèþ. Ìíå ïîêàçàëîñü, ÷òî ìû âñ¸‑òàêè ìîæåì íàùóïàòü êàêèå‑òî îáùèå òî÷êè, êîòîðûå ïîçâîëÿò íàì, îòòîëêíóâøèñü îò íèõ, äîáèòüñÿ îáùåãî óñïåõà. Ýòî, ïðåæäå âñåãî, îòíîñèòñÿ ê òîìó, ÷òî Ïðåçèäåíò Òóðöèè, êàê îí â÷åðà ìíå îá ýòîì ïðÿìî ñêàçàë, ñ÷èòàåò, ÷òî ñèðèéñêèé êðèçèñ ìîæåò áûòü ðåø¸í òîëüêî ïîëèòè÷åñêèìè ñðåäñòâàìè è íóæíî ñîçäàòü óñëîâèÿ äëÿ ïðîäâèæåíèÿ ýòîãî ïîëèòè÷åñêîãî ïðîöåññà.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ äâóñòîðîííèõ ïðîåêòîâ, òî çäåñü ÿ âîîáùå íå âèæó íèêàêèõ ïðîáëåì. Ìû êàê ðàáîòàëè, òàê è ðàáîòàåì íàä ýòèìè âîïðîñàìè. Òàì åñòü ñâîè ïðîáëåìû è ñâîè âîïðîñû, ñâÿçàííûå ïðîñòî, åñëè ïðèìèòèâíî ñêàçàòü, ñ òîðãîâëåé. ×òî ðàíüøå: êóðèöà èëè ÿéöî? ×òî ðàíüøå: ïðîåêò «Òóðåöêèé ïîòîê», åãî þðèäè÷åñêîå îôîðìëåíèå, ëèáî ñêèäêè íà íàø ïðîäàâàåìûé íà òóðåöêèé ðûíîê ãàç, ëèáî ñíà÷àëà ñêèäêè, à ïîòîì þðèäè÷åñêîå îôîðìëåíèå? Íî â ëþáîì ñëó÷àå Òóðöèÿ çàèíòåðåñîâàíà, êàê íàì áûëî ñêàçàíî, â ñîõðàíåíèè è óâåëè÷åíèè îáú¸ìîâ ïðîäàæ íà ñâîé ðûíîê íàøèõ òîâàðîâ, ïðåæäå âñåãî, è â äàííîì ñëó÷àå ìû ãîâîðèì î ãàçîâûõ ñäåëêàõ. È ìû ðàññìàòðèâàëè ðàçëè÷íûå âàðèàíòû ðåøåíèÿ ýòèõ âîïðîñîâ, êîòîðûå ïðåäñòàâëÿþò äëÿ íàñ îáîþäíûé èíòåðåñ.

Âîïðîñ: Õîòåëîñü áû âåðíóòüñÿ ê óêðàèíñêîé òåìàòèêå, òåì áîëåå Âû â÷åðà âñòðå÷àëèñü ñ Àíãåëîé Ìåðêåëü, à Ãåðìàíèÿ âõîäèò â íîðìàíäñêèé ôîðìàò. Îáñóæäàëñÿ ëè óêðàèíñêèé êðèçèñ? È íåò ëè ó Âàñ îïàñåíèé, ÷òî â òîò ìîìåíò, êîãäà ìèðîâîå ñîîáùåñòâî ñêîíöåíòðèðîâàíî íà òåìå áîðüáû ñ òåððîðèçìîì, òàì, íà Äîíáàññå, âíîâü ìîæåò ðàçãîðåòüñÿ êîíôëèêò?

Â.Ïóòèí: Ìû èñõîäèì èç òîãî, ÷òî õâàòèò è âûäåðæêè, è óìà, è îòâåòñòâåííîñòè ó âñåõ ëþäåé, îò êîãî ýòî çàâèñèò. È ìû íå áóäåì íàáëþäàòü äåãðàäàöèþ ñèòóàöèè íà þãî-âîñòîêå Óêðàèíû, à, íàîáîðîò, áóäåì ñïîñîáñòâîâàòü òîìó, ÷òîáû ôàêòè÷åñêîå ïåðåìèðèå, êîòîðîå óäàëîñü äîñòèãíóòü áîëüøèìè óñèëèÿìè, íå áóäåò íàðóøåíî, à íàîáîðîò, îíî áóäåò ñïîñîáñòâîâàòü ðàçâèòèþ ïîëèòè÷åñêîãî ïðîöåññà.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ îáñóæäåíèÿ òåìû Óêðàèíû – äåéñòâèòåëüíî, è ýòî ñàìî ñîáîé ðàçóìååòñÿ, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, íè÷åãî çäåñü íåîáû÷íîãî íåò, ïîñëå òðàãè÷åñêèõ ñîáûòèé â Ïàðèæå, ïîñëå êðóøåíèÿ íàøåãî ñàìîë¸òà, â îòíîøåíèè êîòîðîãî åù¸ ìíîãî íåÿñíîñòåé, êîíå÷íî, ïðåæäå âñåãî ãîâîðèëè îá ýòèõ ïðîáëåìàõ. Òåì íå ìåíåå óêðàèíñêàÿ òåìàòèêà íå óõîäèëà ñ ïîâåñòêè äíÿ. ß ñ êîëëåãàìè ïðàêòè÷åñêè ñî âñåìè, ñ êåì ãîâîðèë â äâóñòîðîííåì ôîðìàòå, îáñóæäàë ýòè âîïðîñû, è ýòà òåìà íå çàáûòà.

Ïîæàëóéñòà.

Âîïðîñ: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ÷àñòî ìîæíî áûëî ñëûøàòü, ÷òî Âàøè çàïàäíûå ïàðòí¸ðû îáâèíÿëè Ðîññèþ â òîì, ÷òî ðîññèéñêèå ÂÊÑ â Ñèðèè íàíîñÿò óäàðû íå ïî ÈÃÈË, à ïî òàê íàçûâàåìûì óìåðåííûì ãðóïïèðîâêàì. Ñåé÷àñ â õîäå ñàììèòà èçìåíèëîñü ìíåíèå, êàê Âû ïî÷óâñòâîâàëè â õîäå äèñêóññèé?

È âòîðàÿ ÷àñòü âîïðîñà.  õîäå îïåðàöèè, âîçãëàâëÿåìîé ÑØÀ ïðîòèâ ÈÃÈË, ÈÃÈË ñëîìèòü íå óäàëîñü.  ÷¸ì Âû âèäèòå â âîåííîì îòíîøåíèè ðàçíèöó ìåæäó äåéñòâèÿìè Ðîññèè è äåéñòâèÿìè êîàëèöèè, âîçãëàâëÿåìîé ÑØÀ? Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû çíàåòå, â îáùåì è öåëîì, ýòà êðèòèêà êàê‑òî íåìíîæêî, ïî÷òè íå çâó÷àëà, òàê ñêàæåì. Äà è òðóäíî íàñ êðèòèêîâàòü‑òî. Íàì ãîâîðÿò: âû áü¸òå íå òóäà. À êîãäà ìû ãîâîðèì: ñêàæèòå, êóäà, íàçîâèòå öåëè, – íàì íå äàþò; ñêàæèòå, êóäà íå íàäî, – òîæå íå äàþò. Êàê íàñ êðèòèêîâàòü‑òî?

Çíàåòå, ÿ íå õî÷ó ¸ðíè÷àòü íà ýòîò ñ÷¸ò. Êàê íè ñòðàííî, åñòü è ñâîè ðåçîíû â ýòîì, ñâîè ïðè÷èíû. È îäíà èç íèõ, ÿ âàì ñêàæó ñåé÷àñ ïðÿìî, çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â òîì, ÷òî íàì áîÿòñÿ äàâàòü òåððèòîðèè, ïî êîòîðûì íå íàäî íàíîñèòü óäàðû, îïàñàÿñü, ÷òî èìåííî òóäà ìû è áóäåì óäàðû íàíîñèòü, ÷òî ìû âñåõ îáìàíåì. Âèäèìî, î íàñ äóìàþò èñõîäÿ èç ñâîèõ ñîáñòâåííûõ ïðåäñòàâëåíèé î ïîðÿäî÷íîñòè.

Íî ÿ ìîãó ïîäòâåðäèòü, ÷òî ìû ñåé÷àñ, ÷òî íàçûâàåòñÿ, íà ïîëå áîÿ óñòàíîâèëè êîíòàêòû ñ ÷àñòüþ (êîíå÷íî, íå ñî âñåé, íî ñ ÷àñòüþ) òàê íàçûâàåìîé íåïðèìèðèìîé, äàæå âîîðóæ¸ííîé ñèðèéñêîé îïïîçèöèè, êîòîðàÿ ñàìà íàñ ïðîñèëà íå íàíîñèòü óäàðû ïî òåì ó÷àñòêàì òåððèòîðèé, êîòîðûå îíè êîíòðîëèðóþò. Ìû äîñòèãëè ýòèõ äîãîâîð¸ííîñòåé è èñïîëíÿåì èõ.

Áîëåå òîãî, ýòà ÷àñòü âîîðóæ¸ííîé îïïîçèöèè ñ÷èòàåò âîçìîæíûì íà÷àòü àêòèâíûå áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ ïðîòèâ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèõ îðãàíèçàöèé, ïðåæäå âñåãî ïðîòèâ ÈÃÈË, â ñëó÷àå íàøåé ïîääåðæêè ñ âîçäóõà. È ìû ãîòîâû îêàçàòü èì ýòó ïîääåðæêó. Åñëè ýòî ïðîèçîéä¸ò, òî ýòî çíà÷èò, ÷òî àðìèÿ Ïðåçèäåíòà Àñàäà, ñ îäíîé ñòîðîíû, è âîîðóæ¸ííàÿ îïïîçèöèÿ, ñ äðóãîé, áîðåòñÿ ñ îáùèì âðàãîì. Ìíå ïðåäñòàâëÿåòñÿ, ÷òî ýòî ìîæåò ñòàòü õîðîøåé áàçîé, õîðîøåé îñíîâîé äëÿ ïîñëåäóþùåé ðàáîòû è íà ïëîùàäêå ïîëèòè÷åñêîãî óðåãóëèðîâàíèÿ.

Ñîáñòâåííî ãîâîðÿ, òàêóþ èäåþ êîãäà‑òî, êîãäà ÿ íåäàâíî áûë â Ïàðèæå â ðàìêàõ íîðìàíäñêîãî ôîðìàòà, ïðåäëîæèë Ïðåçèäåíò Ôðàíöèè ãîñïîäèí Îëëàíä. Ïåðâûå øàãè â ýòîì íàïðàâëåíèè ìû ñäåëàëè, è, â îáùåì è öåëîì, îíè ïîêà ïîçèòèâíûå.

Íàì î÷åíü íóæíà ïîìîùü è ïîääåðæêà Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ, åâðîïåéñêèõ ñòðàí, Ñàóäîâñêîé Àðàâèè, Òóðöèè, Èðàíà äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ýòîò ïðîöåññ ñäåëàòü íåîáðàòèìûì. Âîò îá ýòîì ìû ñ êîëëåãàìè ñåãîäíÿ òîæå î÷åíü ïîäðîáíî ãîâîðèëè.

Âîïðîñ: Ñ ìîìåíòà êðóøåíèÿ ðîññèéñêîãî àýðîáóñà ïðîøëî äîñòàòî÷íî ìíîãî âðåìåíè, ïðè÷¸ì îñòàþòñÿ ñëîæíîñòè, î êîòîðûõ Âû ãîâîðèëè. Êîãäà âñ¸‑òàêè ìîæíî æäàòü îêîí÷àòåëüíîãî âåðäèêòà î ïðè÷èíàõ ýòîé òðàãåäèè?

È âòîðîå, ïîçâîëüòå. Íàñêîëüêî ñåãîäíÿ, ïî Âàøåìó, âåëèêà óãðîçà ïîâòîðåíèÿ òîãî, ÷òî ñëó÷èëîñü â Ïàðèæå, â ðîññèéñêèõ ãîðîäàõ? ×òî äåëàåòñÿ äëÿ ìèíèìèçàöèè ýòèõ óãðîç? Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, îò òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèõ àòàê íèêòî íå çàñòðàõîâàí. Äîïóñòèì, Ôðàíöèÿ îòíîñèëàñü ê ÷èñëó òåõ ñòðàí, êîòîðûå âîîáùå çàíèìàëè äîñòàòî÷íî æ¸ñòêóþ ïîçèöèþ â îòíîøåíèè Ïðåçèäåíòà Àñàäà ëè÷íî. Ìû ñëûøàëè âñ¸ âðåìÿ îò íàøèõ ôðàíöóçñêèõ äðóçåé, ÷òî ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûì óñëîâèåì äëÿ íà÷àëà ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ ïðåîáðàçîâàíèé äîëæíî áûòü ñîãëàñîâàíèå âîïðîñà îá óõîäå Ïðåçèäåíòà Àñàäà. Íó è ÷òî, ýòî óáåðåãëî Ïàðèæ îò òåððîðèñòè÷åñêîé àòàêè? Íåò.

Íàì, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, íå íóæíî âûäâèãàòü âïåð¸ä âîïðîñû, êîòîðûå ïî ñóòè ÿâëÿþòñÿ âòîðîñòåïåííûìè. Ïåðâîå, ÷òî ìû äîëæíû ñäåëàòü, – ýòî îáúåäèíèòü ñâîè óñèëèÿ â áîðüáå ñ òåððîðîì è ñ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè îðãàíèçàöèÿìè è íà ýòîé áàçå äîãîâàðèâàòüñÿ î ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ ïðåîáðàçîâàíèÿõ.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ êðóøåíèÿ íàøåãî ñàìîë¸òà, ýòî îãðîìíàÿ áîëü äëÿ âñåõ íàñ, äëÿ âñåãî ðîññèéñêîãî íàðîäà, ÷òî áû íè áûëî ïðè÷èíîé ýòîãî êðóøåíèÿ. Áîëüøîå êîëè÷åñòâî æåðòâ, è ýòî îãðîìíàÿ òðàãåäèÿ äëÿ âñåõ íàñ. Äà, ìû çíàåì îáî âñåõ âåðñèÿõ, è âñå âåðñèè ðàññìàòðèâàþòñÿ. Îêîí÷àòåëüíûé âûâîä ìîæíî áóäåò ñäåëàòü ïîñëå ïðîâåäåíèÿ è çàâåðøåíèÿ ýêñïåðòèç. Êàêèå ýòî ýêñïåðòèçû? Åñëè áûë âçðûâ, òî íà îáøèâêå ëàéíåðà, íà âåùàõ ïàññàæèðîâ äîëæíû îñòàòüñÿ ñëåäû âçðûâ÷àòîãî âåùåñòâà, ýòî íåèçáåæíî. È ó íàñ äîñòàòî÷íî òåõíèêè, õîðîøèõ ñïåöèàëèñòîâ, êëàññíûõ, ìèðîâîãî óðîâíÿ â ýòîé îáëàñòè, êîòîðûå â ñîñòîÿíèè îáíàðóæèòü ýòè ñëåäû. Òîëüêî ïîñëå ýòîãî ìîæíî áóäåò ñêàçàòü î ïðè÷èíàõ ýòîé òðàãåäèè.

Çäåñü êîëëåãà ñïðàøèâàë ïî ïîâîäó òîãî, ýôôåêòèâíî ëè ðàáîòàëè çàïàäíûå ñòðàíû èëè ìåíåå ýôôåêòèâíî, ðàáîòàåì ëè ìû ýôôåêòèâíî â áîðüáå ñ ÈÃÈË, ñêàæåì, ñ äðóãèìè òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè îðãàíèçàöèÿìè. ß äóìàþ, çíàåòå ÷òî, ñåé÷àñ íå âðåìÿ íàì ãîâîðèòü, êòî ýôôåêòèâíî, êòî íåýôôåêòèâíî. Ôðàíöóçñêèå ñàìîë¸òû ñåé÷àñ ïðîñòî óâåëè÷èëè êîëè÷åñòâî áîåâûõ âûëåòîâ, íî åñëè âû ïîñ÷èòàåòå, ïîñìîòðèòå, ñêîëüêî íàøè ë¸ò÷èêè ñäåëàëè çà ïîñëåäíåå âðåìÿ, òî áóäåò ïîíÿòíà èíòåíñèâíîñòü ýòîé áîåâîé ðàáîòû. Íî, ïîâòîðÿþ, ñåé÷àñ íå âðåìÿ ñ÷èòàòü, êòî ëó÷øå, êòî õóæå, èñêàòü ïðè÷èíû, ïî÷åìó ïðåäûäóùèå äåéñòâèÿ áûëè ìåíåå ýôôåêòèâíûìè èëè áîëåå ýôôåêòèâíûìè. Ñåé÷àñ íóæíî ïîñìîòðåòü âïåð¸ä, íóæíî îáúåäèíèòü óñèëèÿ äëÿ áîðüáû ñ îáùåé óãðîçîé.
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A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 17 2015, 20:56:24     :

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50707
Ñîâåùàíèå îá èòîãàõ ðàññëåäîâàíèÿ ïðè÷èí êðóøåíèÿ ðîññèéñêîãî ñàìîë¸òà íà Ñèíàå

Íàêàíóíå ïîçäíî âå÷åðîì â Êðåìëå Âëàäèìèð Ïóòèí ïðîâ¸ë ñîâåùàíèå, â õîäå êîòîðîãî çàñëóøàë äîêëàä äèðåêòîðà Ôåäåðàëüíîé ñëóæáû áåçîïàñíîñòè Àëåêñàíäðà Áîðòíèêîâà î ïðè÷èíàõ êðóøåíèÿ ðîññèéñêîãî ïàññàæèðñêîãî ñàìîë¸òà 31 îêòÿáðÿ 2015 ãîäà.
17 íîÿáðÿ 2015 ãîäà
11:10
Ìîñêâà, Êðåìëü
Ìèíóòà ìîë÷àíèÿ â ïàìÿòü î ïîãèáøèõ â àâèàêàòàñòðîôå â Åãèïòå.
Ìèíóòà ìîë÷àíèÿ â ïàìÿòü î ïîãèáøèõ â àâèàêàòàñòðîôå â Åãèïòå.
1 èç 9
Ìèíóòà ìîë÷àíèÿ â ïàìÿòü î ïîãèáøèõ â àâèàêàòàñòðîôå â Åãèïòå.

 ñîâåùàíèè ïðèíÿëè ó÷àñòèå Ìèíèñòð îáîðîíû Ñåðãåé Øîéãó, äèðåêòîð Ôåäåðàëüíîé ñëóæáû áåçîïàñíîñòè Àëåêñàíäð Áîðòíèêîâ, íà÷àëüíèê Ãåíåðàëüíîãî øòàáà Âîîðóæ¸ííûõ Ñèë Âàëåðèé Ãåðàñèìîâ, Ìèíèñòð èíîñòðàííûõ äåë Ñåðãåé Ëàâðîâ, äèðåêòîð Ñëóæáû âíåøíåé ðàçâåäêè Ìèõàèë Ôðàäêîâ.

* * *

À.Áîðòíèêîâ: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ïðîâåäåíû èññëåäîâàíèÿ ëè÷íûõ âåùåé, áàãàæà è ÷àñòåé ñàìîë¸òà, ïîòåðïåâøåãî êðóøåíèå â Åãèïòå 31 îêòÿáðÿ.  ðåçóëüòàòå ïðîâåä¸ííûõ ýêñïåðòèç íà âñåõ ïðåäìåòàõ, î êîòîðûõ ÿ ñêàçàë, âûÿâëåíû ñëåäû âçðûâ÷àòîãî âåùåñòâà èíîñòðàííîãî ïðîèçâîäñòâà.

Ïî îöåíêå íàøèõ ñïåöèàëèñòîâ, íà áîðòó âîçäóøíîãî ñóäíà â ïîë¸òå ñðàáîòàëî ñàìîäåëüíîå âçðûâíîå óñòðîéñòâî ìîùíîñòüþ äî 1 êã â òðîòèëîâîì ýêâèâàëåíòå, â ðåçóëüòàòå ÷åãî ïðîèçîøëî «ðàçâàëèâàíèå» ñàìîë¸òà â âîçäóõå, ÷åì îáúÿñíÿåòñÿ ðàçáðîñ ÷àñòåé ôþçåëÿæà ñàìîë¸òà íà áîëüøîì ðàññòîÿíèè.

Ìîæíî îäíîçíà÷íî ñêàçàòü, ÷òî ýòî òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèé àêò.

Â.Ïóòèí: Äàâàéòå âñïîìíèì ïîãèáøèõ åùå ðàç.

Ìèíóòà ìîë÷àíèÿ.

Ðîññèÿ íå â ïåðâûé ðàç ñòàëêèâàåòñÿ ñ âàðâàðñêèìè òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè ïðåñòóïëåíèÿìè, ÷àùå âñåãî áåç âñÿêèõ âèäèìûõ ïðè÷èí, âíåøíèõ èëè âíóòðåííèõ, òàê, êàê ýòî áûëî ñî âçðûâîì íà âîêçàëå â Âîëãîãðàäå â êîíöå 2013 ãîäà. Ìû íèêîãî è íè÷òî íå çàáûëè.

Óáèéñòâî íàøèõ ëþäåé íà Ñèíàå – â ÷èñëå íàèáîëåå êðîâàâûõ ïî ÷èñëó æåðòâ ïðåñòóïëåíèé. È ìû íå áóäåì âûòèðàòü ñë¸ç ñ íàøåé äóøè è ñåðäöà. Ýòî îñòàíåòñÿ ñ íàìè íàâñåãäà. Íî ýòî íå ïîìåøàåò íàì íàéòè è íàêàçàòü ïðåñòóïíèêîâ.

Ìû äîëæíû äåëàòü ýòî áåç ñðîêà äàâíîñòè, çíàòü èõ âñåõ ïîèì¸ííî. Ìû áóäåì èñêàòü èõ âåçäå, ãäå áû îíè íè ïðÿòàëèñü. Ìû èõ íàéä¸ì â ëþáîé òî÷êå ïëàíåòû è ïîêàðàåì.

Ïðè ýòîì ìû äîëæíû îïèðàòüñÿ íà ëþäåé, êîòîðûå ðàçäåëÿþò íàøè ìîðàëüíûå è íðàâñòâåííûå öåííîñòè, ëåæàùèå â îñíîâå íàøåé ïîëèòèêè, â äàííîì ñëó÷àå – âíåøíåé ïîëèòèêè è ïîëèòèêè áåçîïàñíîñòè, ïîëèòèêè áîðüáû ñ òåððîðèçìîì.

Íàøà áîåâàÿ ðàáîòà àâèàöèè â Ñèðèè äîëæíà áûòü íå ïðîñòî ïðîäîëæåíà. Îíà äîëæíà áûòü óñèëåíà òàêèì îáðàçîì, ÷òîáû ïðåñòóïíèêè ïîíÿëè, ÷òî âîçìåçäèå íåèçáåæíî.

ß ïðîøó Ìèíèñòåðñòâî îáîðîíû è Ãåíåðàëüíûé øòàá ïðåäñòàâèòü ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèå ïðåäëîæåíèÿ. ß ïðîâåðþ, êàê èä¸ò ðàáîòà.

Ïðîøó Ìèíèñòåðñòâî èíîñòðàííûõ äåë Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè îáðàòèòüñÿ êî âñåì íàøèì ïàðòí¸ðàì. Ìû ðàññ÷èòûâàåì â õîäå ýòîé ðàáîòû, â òîì ÷èñëå è ïî ïîèñêó è íàêàçàíèþ ïðåñòóïíèêîâ, íà âñåõ íàøèõ äðóçåé.

Ìû áóäåì äåéñòâîâàòü â ñîîòâåòñòâèè ñî ñòàòü¸é 51 Óñòàâà Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé, ïðåäóñìàòðèâàþùåé ïðàâî ãîñóäàðñòâ íà ñàìîîáîðîíó.

Âñå, êòî ïîïûòàåòñÿ îêàçàòü ñîäåéñòâèå ïðåñòóïíèêàì, äîëæíû çíàòü, ÷òî ïîñëåäñòâèÿ îò ïîïûòîê òàêîãî óêðûâàòåëüñòâà áóäóò ëåæàòü ïîëíîñòüþ íà èõ ïëå÷àõ.

ß ïðîøó âñå íàøè ñïåöèàëüíûå ñëóæáû ñîñðåäîòî÷èòüñÿ íà ýòîé ðàáîòå.
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 22 2017, 22:22:38     :

http://www.inopressa.ru/article/22feb2017/guardian/myths.html#
Óáèéöà, êëåïòîêðàò, ãåíèé, øïèîí: ìíîãî÷èñëåííûå ìèôû î Âëàäèìèðå Ïóòèíå

Áîëåå 10 ëåò ñóùåñòâóåò "ïðàêòè÷åñêàÿ ïóòèíîëîãèÿ" - "ñî÷èíåíèå êîììåíòàðèåâ è àíàëèòè÷åñêèõ ñòàòåé î Ïóòèíå è åãî ìîòèâàöèè, îñíîâàííîå íà íåèçáåæíî íåïîëíîé, íåäîñòàòî÷íîé, à èíîãäà ñîâåðøåííî ëîæíîé èíôîðìàöèè", - ïèøåò â ñâîåé ñòàòüå â The Guardian Êèò Ãåññåí, ðåäàêòîð è îñíîâàòåëü àìåðèêàíñêîãî ëèòåðàòóðíîãî æóðíàëà n+1. " ïîñëåäíèå íåñêîëüêî ìåñÿöåâ, êîãäà ãëàâíîé íîâîñòüþ ñòàëè îáâèíåíèÿ â àäðåñ Ðîññèè âî âìåøàòåëüñòâå â èçáðàíèå ïðåçèäåíòà Òðàìïà, ïóòèíîëîãèÿ ñàìà ñåáÿ ïðåâçîøëà. Íè â îäèí äðóãîé èñòîðè÷åñêèé ìîìåíò ñòîëüêî ëþäåé òàê íåâåæåñòâåííî è òàê âîçìóùåííî íå âûðàæàëè ñâîèõ ìíåíèé íà òåìó ðîññèéñêîãî ïðåçèäåíòà", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Ïî ìíåíèþ àâòîðà, ïóòèíîëîãèÿ ðàçðàáîòàëà 7 ðàçíûõ ãèïîòåç î Ïóòèíå. "Íè îäíà èç ýòèõ ãèïîòåç íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ ñòîïðîöåíòíî íåâåðíîé, íî íè îäíà èç íèõ íå âåðíà öåëèêîì (êðîìå ãèïîòåçû íîìåð 7). Åñëè ðàññìîòðåòü èõ â ñîâîêóïíîñòè, îíè ãîâîðÿò íàì î íàñ ñàìèõ íå ìåíüøå, ÷åì î Ïóòèíå. Îíè ðèñóþò ïîðòðåò êëàññà èíòåëëåêòóàëîâ - íàøåãî ñîáñòâåííîãî êëàññà, íàõîäÿùåãîñÿ íà ãðàíè íåðâíîãî ñðûâà", - ïèøåò àâòîð.

Îáîçðåâàòåëü ðàññìàòðèâàåò ýòè ãèïîòåçû ïîî÷åðåäíî.

"Òåîðèÿ íîìåð 1: Ïóòèí - ãåíèé"

"Ïîêà âåñü ìèð èãðàåò â øàøêè, Ïóòèí èãðàåò â øàõìàòû", - ãëàñèò îíà.

Íà âçãëÿä îáîçðåâàòåëÿ, òåîðèÿ "Ïóòèí - çëîé ãåíèé" - ýòî äîìèíèðóþùèé âçãëÿä íà Ïóòèíà íà Çàïàäå, õàðàêòåðíûé äëÿ åãî ìíîãî÷èñëåííûõ êðèòèêîâ è íåìíîãî÷èñëåííûõ ïîêëîííèêîâ. "Òåõ, êòî îöåíèâàåò ïîëèòè÷åñêèå, èíòåëëåêòóàëüíûå è âîåííûå ñïîñîáíîñòè Ïóòèíà íå ñòîëü îïòèìèñòè÷íî (êàê, íàïðèìåð, ïðåçèäåíò Îáàìà), ñ÷èòàþò íàèâíûìè ëþäüìè, êîòîðûå ÿêîáû îòíîñÿòñÿ ê Ïóòèíó ñëèøêîì ìÿãêî", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Ñî ñâîåé ñòîðîíû, àâòîð âûñêàçûâàåò ñîìíåíèÿ â ãåíèàëüíîñòè Ïóòèíà. "Áûëè îïàñåíèÿ, ÷òî óêðàèíñêîå ïðàâèòåëüñòâî, ïðèøåäøåå ê âëàñòè ïîñëå Ìàéäàíà, îòìåíèò ñîãëàøåíèå îá àðåíäå Ðîññèåé êðóïíîãî âîåííî-ìîðñêîãî ïîðòà â Ñåâàñòîïîëå, íî íåóæåëè ãåíèé íå çàùèòèëñÿ áû îò ýòîé óãðîçû êàêèì-òî äðóãèì ñïîñîáîì, êðîìå çàõâàòà âñåãî ïîëóîñòðîâà?" - ïðèâîäèò îí ïðèìåð.

"È äàæå íàø íîâûé àìåðèêàíñêèé Ïóòèí - Äîíàëüä Äæ. Òðàìï - ïîæàëóé, íå òàê óæ âûãîäåí Ðîññèè, êàê êàæåòñÿ íà ïåðâûé âçãëÿä. Âî-ïåðâûõ, ïðåäïîëàãàåìàÿ ñèìïàòèÿ Òðàìïà ê ðîññèéñêîìó ïðåçèäåíòó ñïðîâîöèðîâàëà â ÑØÀ áóðþ ðóñîôîáèè, íåâèäàííóþ ñ íà÷àëà 80-õ. Âî-âòîðûõ, Òðàìï ãëóï. Ãåíèÿì íåñâîéñòâåííî ñâÿçûâàòü ñâîþ ñóäüáó ñ äóðàêàìè", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Ïî ìíåíèþ àâòîðà, åñëè áû Ïóòèí ïîñëå 2008 ãîäà óøåë â îòñòàâêó, åìó áû ïîñòàâèëè ïàìÿòíèêè ïî âñåé Ðîññèè. "Íî òåïåðü, ïðè íèçêèõ öåíàõ íà íåôòü, îñëàáåâøåì ðóáëå, ñìåõîòâîðíûõ êîíòðñàíêöèÿõ âçàìåí åâðîïåéñêèõ ñûðîâ è äåìîðàëèçîâàííîé îïïîçèöèè, òðóäíî âîîáðàçèòü íåíàñèëüñòâåííîå çàâåðøåíèå ýðû Ïóòèíà - çàâåðøåíèå, ïðè êîòîðîì íàñèëèå íå ïîâëå÷åò çà ñîáîé åùå áîëüøèé ðàçãóë íàñèëèÿ. Åñëè ýòî ãåíèàëüíîñòü, òî êðàéíå ñâîåîáðàçíàÿ", - çàêëþ÷àåò àâòîð.

"Òåîðèÿ íîìåð 2: Ïóòèí - ïóñòîå ìåñòî"

"Ìíîãèå ïîëàãàëè, ÷òî Ïóòèí, âåðîÿòíî, íåäîëãî óñèäèò íà òðîíå", - ïèøåò àâòîð, âñïîìèíàÿ 1999-2000 ãîäû. "Ýòî áûë ÷åëîâåê íåâûñîêîãî ðîñòà, ñ ïèñêëÿâûì ãîëîñîì è ðåäåþùèìè âîëîñàìè. Îí áûë "íóëåì" äàæå ñðåäè "íóëåé", êîòîðûå îñòàâàëèñü ïîñëå òîãî, êàê Åëüöèí âíîâü è âíîâü ïðîðåæèâàë ñâîè êàáèíåòû ìèíèñòðîâ", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Àâòîð ïðèçíàåò: " Ïóòèíå äåéñòâèòåëüíî åñòü ÷òî-òî îò ðÿäîâîãî îáûâàòåëÿ". "Òî, ÷òî Ïóòèí íå âûäåëÿëñÿ èç îáùåãî ðÿäà, áûëî ñîñòàâíîé ÷àñòüþ åãî îáàÿíèÿ", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

È âñå æå Ïóòèíó óäàëîñü, íàïðèìåð, àðåñòîâàòü áîãàòåéøåãî ÷åëîâåêà â ñòðàíå - Ìèõàèëà Õîäîðêîâñêîãî. "Íèêòî íå âûøåë íà óëèöû â çàùèòó îïàëüíîãî îëèãàðõà, òàéíûå àðìèè íå ïîÿâèëèñü èç ëåñîâ. Ýòî ñîøëî Ïóòèíó ñ ðóê, à ïîçäíåå ñîøëî ñ ðóê ìíîãîå äðóãîå. Îí ïîñòåïåííî îáâûêñÿ íà ñâîåé äîëæíîñòè", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå. Âðåìÿ ñäåëàëî ñâîå äåëî: ñìåíèëèñü ÷åòûðå ïðåçèäåíòà ÑØÀ, íåñêîëüêî áðèòàíñêèõ ïðåìüåðîâ, à Ïóòèí îñòàåòñÿ ó âëàñòè.

"Òåîðèÿ íîìåð 3: ó Ïóòèíà áûë èíñóëüò"

"Ýòà ðàííÿÿ êëàññèêà ïóòèíîëîãèè ïîïóëÿðèçèðîâàëàñü â ñòàòüå "Àâòîêðàò ïî ñëó÷àéíîñòè" â Atlantic îò 2005 ãîäà, ãäå öèòèðîâàëàñü ðàáîòà Áðåíäû Ë. Êîííîðñ, "èññëåäîâàòåëÿ ïîâåäåíèÿ" èç Âîåííî-ìîðñêîãî êîëëåäæà (Ðîä-Àéëåíä, ÑØÀ). Èçó÷èâ äâèæåíèÿ Ïóòèíà ïî âèäåîçàïèñÿì, Êîííîðñ çàêëþ÷èëà, ÷òî ó íåãî åñòü îñëàáëÿþùèé çäîðîâüå è, âåðîÿòíî, âðîæäåííûé íåâðîëîãè÷åñêèé äåôåêò (âåðîÿòíî, âûçâàííûé èíñóëüòîì â ýìáðèîíàëüíûé ïåðèîä), êîòîðûé íå äàåò åìó ïîëíîöåííî ïîëüçîâàòüñÿ ïðàâîé ïîëîâèíîé òåëà - ïîòîìó-òî, êîãäà îí ïðîõàæèâàåòñÿ, åãî ëåâàÿ ðóêà ñîâåðøàåò áîëåå øèðîêèå âçìàõè, ÷åì ïðàâàÿ", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Ïî ìíåíèþ àâòîðà, ýòà ãèïîòåçà ìàëî ãîäèòñÿ äëÿ ïðîãíîçèðîâàíèÿ äåéñòâèé Ïóòèíà, íî çàñòðåâàåò â ïàìÿòè.

"Òåîðèÿ íîìåð 4: Ïóòèí - ñîòðóäíèê ÊÃÁ"

"Êàê òîëüêî Ïóòèí ïûòàëñÿ îáîéòèñü ñ êåì-òî ëþáåçíî, ýòî îáúÿñíÿëè òåì, ÷òî îí - àãåíò ÊÃÁ è ìàíèïóëèðóåò ëþäüìè. À âñÿêèé ðàç, êîãäà îí âðåäíè÷àë - íàïðèìåð, ïîçíàêîìèë Àíãåëó Ìåðêåëü, êîòîðàÿ áîèòñÿ ñîáàê, ñî ñâîèì ÷åðíûì ëàáðàäîðîì Êîíè, - ýòî, çíà÷èò, îòòîãî, ÷òî îí - àãåíò ÊÃÁ è äîáèâàåòñÿ ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêèõ ïðåèìóùåñòâ", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Àâòîð ñ÷èòàåò íåñîìíåííûì, ÷òî áîëüøóþ ÷àñòü ïðîôåññèîíàëüíîãî îïûòà Ïóòèí ïîëó÷èë â ÊÃÁ. Âäîáàâîê îí ó÷èëñÿ â Âûñøåé øêîëå ÊÃÁ.

"È âñå æå ÿ íåâîëüíî íàõîæó ãèïîòåçó î ÊÃÁ íåóäîâëåòâîðèòåëüíîé", - ïðîäîëæàåò àâòîð. "Ñîãëàñèòåñü, â ìèðå ìíîãî çàäèð, êîòîðûå äåëÿò ëþäåé íà òåõ, êîãî ìîãóò êîíòðîëèðîâàòü, è íà òåõ, êîãî íå ìîãóò. Ðàçâå íå òàê äåéñòâîâàë, íàïðèìåð, Äèê ×åéíè?" - ïîÿñíÿåò îí, îòìå÷àÿ, ÷òî ýòîò ìåòîä - íå óíèêàëüíàÿ ïðèìåòà ÊÃÁ.

Íî â óñòàõ çàïàäíûõ ëþäåé ÿðëûê "ÊÃÁ" îáîçíà÷àåò ÑÑÑÐ, ïðè÷åì "ñêîðåå êàê "àãðåññèâíóþ èìïåðñêóþ äåðæàâó, êîòîðàÿ çàíÿëà ïîëîâèíó Âîñòî÷íîé Åâðîïû. È äåéñòâèòåëüíî, Ïóòèí, ïî-âèäèìîìó, íå ñ÷èòàåò ñòðàíû íà ïåðèôåðèè Ðîññèè ïîëíîöåííûìè ñòðàíàìè, ó êîòîðûõ åñòü ñâîè ïðàâà è ïðèîðèòåò; åãî ñïðàâåäëèâî íàçûâàòü èìïåðèàëèñòîì. Íåñïðàâåäëèâî äðóãîå (â îòíîøåíèè ÑÑÑÐ, ñîáñòâåííî) - óòâåðæäàòü, áóäòî èìïåðèàëèçì Ïóòèíà íîñèò ñïåöèôè÷åñêè-ñîâåòñêèé õàðàêòåð", - ïèøåò àâòîð, ññûëàÿñü íà ïðèìåð Ðîññèéñêîé èìïåðèè. "Ïóòèí - ðóññêèé èìïåðèàëèñò, è òî÷êà", - çàìå÷àåò îí.

"Íî â êîíå÷íîì èòîãå â òîì, ÷òî òû èìåíóåøü êîãî-òî "êàãýáýøíèêîì", åñòü è íðàâñòâåííàÿ êîííîòàöèÿ, òàê êàê ñîâåòñêèé ÊÃÁ ñîâåðøàë óáèéñòâà, ïðèòåñíÿë è ñàæàë â òþðüìû äèññèäåíòîâ, áûë îäíèì èç ïèîíåðîâ òîãî, ÷òî ïîçäíåå íàçâàëè "ôåéêîâûìè íîâîñòÿìè", - ïèøåò àâòîð. Íî, ñ÷èòàåò îí, ïðåäñòàâëåíèå, ÷òî âñå ñëóæèâøèå â ÊÃÁ - îòúÿâëåííûå çëîäåè, ñëèøêîì îäíîáîêî.  90-õ âûÿñíèëîñü, ÷òî ñðåäè ñîòðóäíèêîâ ÊÃÁ áûëè ñàìûå ðàçíûå ëþäè.

"Òåîðèÿ íîìåð 5: Ïóòèí - óáèéöà"

"Ìíå ñîâåðøåííî íå õî÷åòñÿ îñïàðèâàòü çäåñü ýòó îöåíêó. Ïóòèí íà÷àë ÿðîñòíûå âîéíû ïðîòèâ ×å÷íè, Ãðóçèè è Óêðàèíû, ïîâëåêøèå çà ñîáîé ñìåðòü ëþäåé; ÿ ñîãëàñåí ñ âûâîäàìè íåäàâíåãî áðèòàíñêîãî ðàññëåäîâàíèÿ, êîòîðîå çàêëþ÷èëî, ÷òî Ïóòèí, "âåðîÿòíî", îäîáðèë óáèéñòâî Ëèòâèíåíêî. Íî íà÷àëî àãðåññèâíûõ âîéí è óáèéñòâî áûâøåãî ñîòðóäíèêà ñïåöñëóæá, êîòîðûé ñòàë ïåðåáåæ÷èêîì, - âðÿä ëè òå ïîñòóïêè, çà êîòîðûå âàñ ìîãóò èçãíàòü èç ìåæäóíàðîäíîãî ñîîáùåñòâà", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

"Íåò, Ïóòèíà ñ÷èòàþò óáèéöåé â äðóãîì ñìûñëå", - ïèøåò àâòîð. Àìåðèêàíñêèé òåëåâåäóùèé Äæî Ñêàðáîðî, äîïðàøèâàÿ Òðàìïà î åãî ñèìïàòèè ê Ïóòèíó, çàÿâèë, ÷òî Ïóòèí "óáèâàåò æóðíàëèñòîâ è ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ ïðîòèâíèêîâ".  äðóãîé ñèòóàöèè ýêñ-ñîâåòíèê Áåëîãî äîìà Äæîðäæ Ñòåôàíîïóëîñ çàÿâèë: "Áûëî ìíîãî óòâåðæäåíèé, ÷òî îí ñòîÿë çà óáèéñòâîì Àííû Ïîëèòêîâñêîé".

Àâòîð êîììåíòèðóåò: "Ïðîáëåìà ñ ýòèì îáâèíåíèåì íå â òîì, ÷òî îíî ëîæíî, à â òîì, ÷òî îíî, êàê è áîëüøàÿ ÷àñòü ïóòèíîëîãèè, ïðîðàáîòàíî íåðÿøëèâî". Êîãäà áîëüøèíñòâî ëþäåé îáâèíÿþò Ïóòèíà â óáèéñòâå "æóðíàëèñòîâ è ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ ïðîòèâíèêîâ", îíè ïîäðàçóìåâàþò Ïîëèòêîâñêóþ è Áîðèñà Íåìöîâà. "Óòâåðæäåíèÿ, ÷òî çà óáèéñòâàìè Ïîëèòêîâñêîé è Íåìöîâà ñòîÿë Ïóòèí, äåéñòâèòåëüíî ñóùåñòâóþò, íî â íèõ âåðÿò ëèøü íåìíîãèå èç òåõ, êòî îñâåäîìëåí îá ýòèõ äåëàõ. À âåðÿò îíè â òî, ÷òî Ïîëèòêîâñêàÿ è Íåìöîâ áûëè óáèòû ëèöàìè, ñâÿçàííûìè ñ Ðàìçàíîì Êàäûðîâûì, æåñòêèì äèêòàòîðîì ×å÷íè", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

"È âñå æå ïðè÷àñòíîñòü Êàäûðîâà íå èçáàâëÿåò Ïóòèíà îò îòâåòñòâåííîñòè, òàê êàê Êàäûðîâ ðàáîòàåò íà Ïóòèíà. Øèðîêî ñîîáùàëîñü, ÷òî Ïóòèí áûë îçàäà÷åí è âçáåøåí óáèéñòâîì Íåìöîâà è íåñêîëüêî íåäåëü îòêàçûâàëñÿ îòâå÷àòü íà çâîíêè Êàäûðîâà. Ñ äðóãîé ñòîðîíû, ïðîøëî ïî÷òè äâà ãîäà, à Êàäûðîâ ïî-ïðåæíåìó ðóêîâîäèò ×å÷íåé. Íà ýòîò ïîñò åãî íàçíà÷èë Ïóòèí. Èòàê, åñëè Ïóòèí íå îòäàë ïðÿìûõ ïðèêàçîâ îá ýòèõ óáèéñòâàõ - à, ïîâòîðþñü, áîëüøèíñòâî æóðíàëèñòîâ è àíàëèòèêîâ ñ÷èòàåò, ÷òî îí òàêèõ ïðèêàçîâ íå îòäàâàë - îí âñå æå ïðîäîëæàåò ðàáîòàòü ñ òåìè, êòî ýòî ñäåëàë, è ïîääåðæèâàòü èõ", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

" ñëó÷àå ñ òåîðèåé "Ïóòèí - óáèéöà" ìû îêàçûâàåìñÿ â ýòàêîì ïîíÿòèéíîì "ñëåïîì ïÿòíå" ïóòèíîëîãèè. Ïîõîæå, â Ðîññèè ìû èìååì äåëî íå ñ íåñîñòîÿòåëüíûì ãîñóäàðñòâîì (òàêèì, ãäå ó ïðàâèòåëüñòâà íåò âëàñòè) è íå ñ òîòàëèòàðíûì ãîñóäàðñòâîì (òàêèì, ãäå ïðàâèòåëüñòâó ïðèíàäëåæèò âñÿ âëàñòü), à ñ ÷åì-òî ïðîìåæóòî÷íûì. Ïóòèí íå îòäàåò ïðèêàçîâ îá óáèéñòâàõ, è âñå æå óáèéñòâà ïðîèñõîäÿò. Ïóòèí ïðèêàçàë ïðèñîåäèíèòü Êðûì, íî, íàñêîëüêî ìîæåò êòî-ëèáî îïðåäåëèòü, îí, ïîõîæå, íå îòäàâàë ïðèêàç î âòîðæåíèè íà Âîñòî÷íóþ Óêðàèíó. Ýòî âòîðæåíèå, ïîõîæå, áûëî ïðåäïðèíÿòî êàê îïåðàöèÿ íà ñâîé ñòðàõ è ðèñê, ñîâåðøåííàÿ êó÷êîé íàåìíèêîâ, êîòîðûõ ôèíàíñèðîâàë ðîññèéñêèé áèçíåñìåí ñ õîðîøèìè ñâÿçÿìè. Íàñòîÿùèå ðîññèéñêèå âîéñêà ïðèáûëè ïîçäíåå. Íî åñëè Ïóòèí ðóëèò íå âñåì - åñëè ñóùåñòâóþò íåêèå ìîãóùåñòâåííûå ñèëû, äåéñòâóþùèå â îáõîä ðàñïîðÿæåíèé Ïóòèíà, - êàêîé ñìûñë â ïóòèíîëîãèè? Ïóòèíîëîãèÿ îáõîäèò ýòîò âîïðîñ ìîë÷àíèåì", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

"Òåîðèÿ íîìåð 6: Ïóòèí - êëåïòîêðàò"

"Ïðèìåðíî äî 2009 ãîäà æàëîáû ëèáåðàëüíûõ êðèòèêîâ Ïóòèíà â Ðîññèè, ðàñïðîñòðàíÿåìûå çàïàäíûìè æóðíàëèñòàìè è ãîñóäàðñòâåííûìè äåÿòåëÿìè, êàñàëèñü ïðåèìóùåñòâåííî òîãî, ÷òî îí íàðóøàåò ïðàâà ÷åëîâåêà", - ïèøåò àâòîð. Çàòåì àêòèâèñò àíòèêîððóïöèîííîãî äâèæåíèÿ Àëåêñåé Íàâàëüíûé "çàêëþ÷èë, ÷òî â ñîâðåìåííîé Ðîññèè ïðàâà ÷åëîâåêà - òåìà íå âûèãðûøíàÿ, à äåíüãè - âûèãðûøíàÿ", ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå. " åãî âåðñèè, çà êîòîðóþ âñêîðå ñõâàòèëèñü çàïàäíûå ïóòèíîëîãè, Ïóòèí áûë óæå íå ñòðàøíûì ÷óäîâèùåì, à íåêèì ìåíåå çàìûñëîâàòûì ñóùåñòâîì, íà êîòîðîå ïðîùå íàéòè óïðàâó, - âîðîì", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

"Äîñòîèíñòâî ýòîãî îáâèíåíèÿ - â åãî áåññïîðíîé äîñòîâåðíîñòè. Ëèáî îíî âåðíî, ëèáî ñðåäè ñòàðûõ äðóçåé Ïóòèíà óäèâèòåëüíî ìíîãî ãåíèàëüíûõ áèçíåñìåíîâ, ïîòîìó ÷òî çà ïåðèîä ïîñëå åãî ïðèõîäà ê âëàñòè îíè ñäåëàëèñü ìèëëèàðäåðàìè", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Áûë ñäåëàí âûâîä: åñëè óäàðèòü ïî áîãàòñòâó äðóçåé Ïóòèíà, ýòî âûíóäèò Ïóòèíà îòêàçàòüñÿ îò íåêîòîðûõ âíåøíåïîëèòè÷åñêèõ ãàìáèòîâ. "Òàê ðîäèëñÿ çàìûñåë "òàðãåòèðîâàííûõ" ñàíêöèé, ââåäåííûõ ÑØÀ è ÅÑ â 2014 ãîäó ïðîòèâ "áëèæàéøåãî îêðóæåíèÿ" Ïóòèíà", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Íî "åñëè äðóçüÿ Ïóòèíà è óìîëÿëè åãî îáðàçóìèòüñÿ, òî îí íå ïîñëóøàëñÿ. Áîëåå âåðîÿòíî, ÷òî äðóçüÿ Ïóòèíà ïîíÿëè: îíè èçâëåêëè âûãîäó èç åãî ùåäðîñòè, åãî íåîæèäàííîãî ïðèõîäà ê âëàñòè, à òåïåðü äîëæíû åãî ïîääåðæèâàòü, ÷òî áû íè ñëó÷èëîñü. Êëåïòîêðàòû - íå òå, êòî îðãàíèçóåò óñïåøíûå äâîðöîâûå ïåðåâîðîòû. Äëÿ ïåðåâîðîòîâ íóæíû íàñòîÿùèå èäåéíûå ëþäè. Åñëè ñðåäè íèõ åñòü êòî-òî èäåéíûé, îí ïîêà íå ïîêàçàë ñâîåãî èñòèííîãî ëèöà. Ñîáñòâåííî, íà íàñòîÿùåãî èäåéíîãî ñðåäè íèõ áîëüøå âñåãî ïîõîæ ñàì Ïóòèí", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

"Òåîðèÿ íîìåð 7: Ïóòèíà çîâóò Âëàäèìèð"

" ñòàòüå, íåäàâíî îïóáëèêîâàííîé íà ñàéòå îäíîãî ïî÷òåííîãî àìåðèêàíñêîãî æóðíàëà, ÷èòàòåëåé ïðåäîñòåðåãàëè: êîíåö êîììóíèñòè÷åñêîãî ðåæèìà "íå îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ îòêàçàëàñü îò ñâîåé ïåðâîñòåïåííîé ìèññèè ïî äåñòàáèëèçàöèè Åâðîïû", - à Ïóòèíà íàçûâàëè "áûâøèì àãåíòîì ÊÃÁ, êîòîðûé íå ñëó÷àéíî íîñèò èìÿ "Âëàäèìèð Èëüè÷" - êàê Ëåíèí", - ïèøåò àâòîð. Ïîçäíåå â ñòàòüþ âíåñëè ïîïðàâêè: íàïèñàëè, ÷òî Ïóòèí íå ñëó÷àéíî íîñèò èìÿ Âëàäèìèð - êàê Ëåíèí.

"Ãèïîòåçà "Ïóòèíà çîâóò Âëàäèìèð" - ëèáî âåëè÷àéøèé çåíèò, ëèáî âåëè÷àéøèé óïàäîê ïóòèíîëîãèè, ñìîòðÿ ïî âàøåé ñîáñòâåííîé òî÷êå çðåíèÿ. Íî òî, ÷òî ÷åëîâåê, íå çíàþùèé ïîëíîãî èìåíè Ïóòèíà, óâåðåííî ïðîâîçãëàøàåò ñåáÿ ýêñïåðòîì, - ÿâíàÿ ïðèìåòà íåêîãî ÿâëåíèÿ. Ýòî ïðèìåòà òîãî, ÷òî áîëüøàÿ ÷àñòè ïóòèíîëîãèè - íà ñàìîì äåëå íå ïðî Ïóòèíà è íèêîãäà íå áûëà ïðî Ïóòèíà", - ïèøåò àâòîð. Ïî åãî ìíåíèþ, àêòèâíûå ïîïûòêè "ïóòèíîàíàëèçà" ïîðîæäåíû æåëàíèåì ïåðåëîæèòü âèíó çà ïîáåäó Òðàìïà íà äðóãèõ. "Äà ðàçâå ìû ìîãëè âûáðàòü ýòîãî ïðåäâçÿòîãî ñàìîâëþáëåííîãî èäèîòà? Íàâåðíÿêà íàì íàâÿçàëè åãî îòêóäà-òî èç-çà ãðàíèöû", - ïèøåò àâòîð.

Ïî ìíåíèþ àâòîðà, îãëàñêà ýëåêòðîííûõ ïèñåì, â êîòîðîé îáâèíÿþò ðîññèéñêèõ àãåíòîâ, - äàëåêî íå ãëàâíàÿ ïðè÷èíà ïîáåäû Òðàìïà íà âûáîðàõ. È âñå æå Õèëëàðè Êëèíòîí è åå øòàá ïðîäîëæàþò âèíèòü â ñâîåì ïîðàæåíèè Ðîññèþ. " ýòîì ñëó÷àå ìûñëè î Ïóòèíå ïîìîãàþò íå äóìàòü îáî âñåì îñòàëüíîì, ÷òî èäåò íå òàê, è î òîì, êàê íàäî ðåøàòü ýòè ïðîáëåìû", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

"Âîò ïåðåä íàìè ÷åëîâåê - Äîíàëüä Äæ. Òðàìï, - êîòîðûé âûñòóïèë ñ áåññ÷åòíûìè æåñòîêèìè è ïðåäâçÿòûìè âûñêàçûâàíèÿìè è ïðåäëîæèë æåñòîêóþ è ïðåäâçÿòóþ ïîëèòèêó, îí ïàòîëîãè÷åñêèé ëãóí, åìó íå óäàëîñü ïî÷òè íè÷åãî èç òîãî, ÷òî îí ïðîáîâàë äåëàòü, îí îêðóæàåò ñåáÿ àôåðèñòàìè è ìèëëèàðäåðàìè. È âñå æå, äåíü îòî äíÿ, ëþäè âñòðå÷àþò ëèêîâàíèåì êàæäûé îáðûâîê èíôîðìàöèè ïðè ïîïûòêàõ ðàñêîïàòü ñåêðåòíûå/òàéíûå ñâÿçè Òðàìïà ñ Ðîññèåé: êàæäûé îáðûâîê ðàçäóâàåòñÿ â íàäåæäå, ÷òî îí íàêîíåö-òî ëèøèò Òðàìïà ëåãèòèìíîñòè, èçãîíèò åãî èç Áåëîãî äîìà è ïîäâåäåò ÷åðòó ïîä êîøìàðîì ëèáåðàëîâ - òåì, ÷òî îíè ïðîèãðàëè âûáîðû ýòîìó ãíóñíîìó íåäîóìêó", - ïèøåò àâòîð.

"Åñëè Òðàìïà ïîäâåðãíóò èìïè÷ìåíòó è ïîñàäÿò â òþðüìó çà ñãîâîð ñ èíîñòðàííîé äåðæàâîé â öåëÿõ ïîäðûâà àìåðèêàíñêîé äåìîêðàòèè, ÿ áóäó ðàäîâàòüñÿ ýòîìó íå ìåíüøå, ÷åì ëþáîé äðóãîé àìåðèêàíåö. È âñå æå â äîëãîñðî÷íîé ïåðñïåêòèâå ðàçûãðûâàíèå ðîññèéñêîé êàðòû - íå ïðîñòî ïëîõîå ïîëèòè÷åñêîå ðåøåíèå, íî è èíòåëëåêòóàëüíîå è íðàâñòâåííîå áàíêðîòñòâî. Ýòî ïîïûòêà ñâàëèòü âèíó çà ãëóáîêèå è ñòîéêèå ïðîáëåìû íàøåé ñòðàíû íà èíîñòðàííóþ äåðæàâó. Êàê îòìåòèëè íåêîòîðûå êîììåíòàòîðû, ýòî óëîâêà èç àðñåíàëà ñàìîãî Ïóòèíà", - çàêëþ÷àåò àâòîð.
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 22 2017, 22:25:26     :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/22/vladimir-putin-killer-genius-kleptocrat-spy-myths
Vladimir Putin, you may have noticed, is everywhere. He has soldiers in Ukraine and Syria, troublemakers in the Baltics and Finland, and a hand in elections from the Czech Republic to France to the United States. And he is in the media. Not a day goes by without a big new article on “Putin’s Revenge”, “The Secret Source of Putin’s Evil”, or “10 Reasons Why Vladimir Putin Is a Terrible Human Being”.

Putin’s recent ubiquity has brought great prominence to the practice of Putinology. This enterprise – the production of commentary and analysis about Putin and his motivations, based on necessarily partial, incomplete and sometimes entirely false information – has existed as a distinct intellectual industry for over a decade. It kicked into high gear after the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014, but in the past few months, as allegations of Russian meddling in the election of President Donald Trump have come to dominate the news, Putinology has outdone itself. At no time in history have more people with less knowledge, and greater outrage, opined on the subject of Russia’s president. You might say that the reports of Trump’s golden showers in a Moscow hotel room have consecrated a golden age – for Putinology.

And what does Putinology tell us? It turns out that it has produced seven distinct hypotheses about Putin. None of them is entirely wrong, but then none of them is entirely right (apart from No 7). Taken together, they tell us as much about ourselves as about Putin. They paint a portrait of an intellectual class – our own – on the brink of a nervous breakdown. But let’s take them in order.
Theory 1: Putin is a genius
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It’s simple: while the world is playing checkers, Putin is playing chess. He seized Crimea from the Ukrainians with barely a shot fired; he got back Yalta, the favoured beach resort of Chekhov and the tsars, and all he faced as punishment were some minor sanctions. He intervened on behalf of the Assad regime in Syria, after the US, Turkey and the Saudis spent years supporting the rebels, and in short order turned the tide of the war. He has been instrumental in undermining the pro-EU consensus, financing the Eurosceptic right – and, where convenient, the Eurosceptic left – aiming apparently to dismantle the postwar international order and replace it with a series of bilateral transactional relationships in which Russia can, for the most part, be the senior partner.
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Finally, he interfered in the US election, the election for the most powerful post in the world, and managed to get his man in the White House. And what were the consequences? A few diplomats expelled from the United States is a small price to pay for a potential end to US sanctions, a renewal of economic ties and joint oil-drilling in the Russian Arctic, and the de facto acknowledgment of Crimea as part of the Russian Federation.

Domestically, Putin has managed to silence or co‑opt almost all opposition. The liberals squabble among themselves on Facebook and emigrate; the far right, which hates Putin for his refusal to go full fascist and, for example, take Kiev, is kept on a tight leash; and the democratic socialist left, hobbled by the massive pseudo-left authoritarian Communist Party of the Russian Federation, is so tiny Putin can hardly even see it (and he has many eyes).

Putin during his first two terms enjoyed immense luck in the form of a worldwide commodities boom, but he could have blown that luck. Instead, he husbanded it, and Russia grew rich. Now the closest thing to a rival to Putin within his inner circle is his prime minister, the pudgy and diminutive Dmitry Medvedev, who has distinguished himself primarily as a man who enjoys playing with his iPad. The lone domestic politician who has mounted a plausible threat to Putin is Alexei Navalny, a talented Moscow-based digital populist of variable political convictions, whom the Kremlin is keeping busy with various criminal charges and house arrests.

Putin-as-evil-genius is, unquestionably, the primary theoretical view in the west of the Russian president, whether by his multitude of critics or his smattering of admirers. Those who take a more jaundiced view of Putin’s political, intellectual, and military capabilities – President Barack Obama, for one – are treated as naive, soft on Putin: the sort of people who play checkers, not chess. Meanwhile, most Russian observers of Putin tend to be surprised at the western awe of his overwhelming strategic prowess. Garry Kasparov, for example, the great chess champion and not-so-great opposition politician, finds the whole thing insulting to chess.

Trump’s apparent romance with the Russian president has ignited a storm of Russophobia in the US

In any case, one does wonder about this genius business. Was it really worth international isolation, increasingly bothersome sanctions and the eternal enmity of the Ukrainian people to seize a beloved but past-its-prime resort area that Russians don’t even really visit any more? There was fear that the post-Maidan government of Ukraine might cancel the lease on the large Russian naval port in Sevastopol, but surely a genius might have handled the threat through something short of seizing the entire peninsula?
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As for Syria, Putin may bask for now in the glory of rescuing the Assad regime, but who will celebrate this glory with him? Certainly not Sunni Muslims, whom Assad has been slaughtering – some of those who survive will soon return to their homes in the Caucasus and Central Asia, newly angry at the Russian bear. As for the disintegration of the EU, which Putin seems to seek almost above all else, is this really a winning formula for Russia? The “Hungarian Putin”, Viktor Orbán, is so far well-disposed toward Russia, but what we might call the Polish Putins of the Law and Justice party are committed Russophobes. And, as one shrewd commentator has pointed out, should Putin ever succeed in installing a rightwing nationalist leader in neighbouring Germany, that German Putin may well decide to go to war with the original Putin, as German Putins have always tended to do in the past.

And even our new American Putin, Donald J Trump, may not be as much of a boon to Russia as he seems at first glance. For one thing, Trump’s apparent romance with the Russian president has ignited a storm of Russophobia in the US, the like of which has not been seen since the early 1980s. For another, Trump is a fool. It is not the way of genius to hitch your wagon to a fool.

On the domestic front, Putin’s genius now seems equally suspect. In 2011, he made the momentous decision to return to the presidency after ceding it for four years to Medvedev. The decision, announced in a humiliating manner by Medvedev himself, was soon followed by the largest protests in Moscow since the early 1990s. Putin was impressive in waiting the protests out. He did not make the mistake that Viktor Yanukovych made two years later in Ukraine by first overreacting and then, perhaps, underreacting to the situation. Instead, Putin let the protests lose steam and then picked off the protest leaders one by one with surreptitiously videotaped provocations and phony criminal charges, while Moscow itself underwent a kind of urban renaissance, complete with public parks and bike lanes, to assuage some of the anger of the creative class. But Putin did nothing to address the substance of the criticism coming from the opposition – that his political regime was corrupt, unresponsive, and that it had no vision. Instead, with the invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent nationalist mobilisation, he doubled down on the worst aspects of his reign.

Had Putin retired after 2008, as he said he would, and become a grand old man of Russian politics, there would have been statues built to him throughout the country. Under him, Russia had emerged from the chaos of the 1990s into a relative stability and prosperity. Now, however, with low oil prices, a collapsed rouble, risible counter-sanctions in place on European cheese, and a demoralised opposition, it is hard to imagine an end to the Putin era that is not violent, and whose violence does not lead to more violence. If this is genius, then it is of a very peculiar kind.
Theory 2: Putin is a nothing
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The first sight many Russians got of Vladimir Putin was on New Year’s Eve, 1999, when in a remarkable turn of events, a clearly ailing Boris Yeltsin, with six months left in his term, used his traditional televised end-of-year address to announce that he was resigning the presidency and handing the reins to his recently appointed, younger and more energetic prime minister.

Then Putin came on. The effect was startling. Yeltsin had looked confused and sickly. His speech was so slurred that he was hard to understand. He sat bolt upright as if wearing a brace. But this? This homunculus? Putin was tiny compared to Yeltsin, and though younger and healthier, he nonetheless managed to more closely resemble death. He spoke for a few minutes, promising on the one hand to keep Russian democracy strong, but on the other hand issuing various warnings to those who would threaten Russia – an incongruous performance. Many people didn’t think it was likely that Putin would last very long in this august seat. For all his faults, Yeltsin was at least a someone: tall, with a booming voice, a former member of the Soviet Politburo. Whereas Putin? He was, people suddenly scrambled to learn, merely a colonel in the KGB. He had been sent abroad, but only barely – to the East German backwater of Dresden. He was short and had a squeaky voice and his hair was thinning. He was a nonentity even among the nonentities who remained after Yeltsin’s perpetual clearing-out of his cabinets.
Is humour the best weapon against Europe’s new wave of xenophobic nationalism?
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In a world where most people are convinced that Putin is a genius, this theory of Putin as a nobody deserves a second look. There really is an everyman quality to Putin. One of my favourite observations about him comes from a man who knew him back in St Petersburg in the 1990s. The man became a whistleblower after the successful medical supplies company he ran was asked, not long after Putin became president, to divert a portion of its earnings into the fund for “Putin’s Palace”, a huge complex going up on the Black Sea. But he had an interesting take on the president as he had known him before, as he told the British journalist Ben Judah:

He was an absolutely average man … His voice was average … not tough, not high. He had an average personality … average intelligence, not especially high intelligence. You could go out the door and find thousands and thousands of people in Russia, all of them just like Putin.

This can’t be entirely right: Putin was above average in at least a few respects (he was the judo champion of Leningrad, for one). But there is insight in these words. It was part of Putin’s charm that he didn’t stand out. During his first interviews in office he stressed how much of a regular guy he was, how he had struggled financially during the 1990s, how much tough luck he’d had. He knew all the same jokes, had listened to all the same music and seen all the same movies, as everyone else of his generation. It is a testament to the power of Soviet culture, to both its egalitarianism and its limitations, that when Putin mentioned a line from a quasi-dissident song or movie of the 1960s or 1970s, almost everyone knew exactly what he was talking about. This did not put him out of the mainstream. He was the unremarkable only child of an unremarkable working family from Leningrad. It was almost as if the Soviet Union had coughed up, from the great mass of its humanity, this average exemplar, with his average aggressiveness, his average ignorance, his average nostalgia for the way things were.

Accounts of Putin’s early years in office tend to confirm that he was something less than a colossus. He was impressed by the might of the American empire and awed by George W Bush. He was aware, too, of how limited his domestic power was. Russian politics during the Yeltsin era had been dominated by a small group of oligarchs, oil and banking titans with their own private armies. These were led not by short, skinny former colonels like Putin, but by barrel-chested former generals of the Interior Ministry and KGB. What’s more, some of the oligarchs were brilliant strategists – they had survived the ruthless 1990s and emerged victorious, while Putin had muddled along as the corrupt deputy to a one-term mayor. Putin’s early popularity was based on his tough attitude towards Chechens and oligarchs. He had succeeded in levelling Chechnya, but could he really win in a showdown with the oligarchs? He had no idea.
Vladimir Putin shows off his judo prowess in 2009.
Vladimir Putin shows off his judo prowess in 2009. Photograph: RIA Novosti / Reuters/Reuters

In 2003, in one of the main turning-points of his reign, it took Putin months to work up the nerve to arrest Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the country’s richest man. But then he did it, and it worked. No people rose up in the streets to defend the fallen oligarch, no secret armies emerged from the forests. Putin got away with it, and he would get away with much more. He would grow into his office. Today you see tiny Putin walking through the cavernous chambers of the Kremlin during official ceremonies, and clearly his stature has not risen to the grandeur of his surroundings. But time itself has done its work. When he meets Trump, it will be his fourth US president. Numerous British prime ministers have left office, along with two French presidents and a German chancellor (whom, in a less than proud moment for the German people, Putin later hired). Putin remains. A kind of stature accrues to him just from surviving. A middling stature.
Theory 3: Putin had a stroke
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This early classic of Putinology was popularised in a 2005 Atlantic article titled “The Accidental Autocrat”, which cited the work of a “behavioural research fellow” at the Naval War College in Rhode Island named Brenda L Connors. After studying film of Putin’s movements, Connors concluded that he had a debilitating and likely congenital neurological deficiency, possibly caused by a stroke in utero, which prevented him from having full use of the right side of his body – which is why his left arm swings more than his right when he walks. Connors told the Atlantic that it was unlikely that Putin had ever crawled as an infant and that he still moves with his entire body, “in a head-to-tail pattern, like a fish or a reptile”.

The explanatory power of this hypothesis in terms of predicting whether Putin will, for example, invade Belarus, is low, but nonetheless it is haunting. One pictures little fish-like Putin moving through the world of men and women who have use of both sides of their bodies, and he, without that ability, feeling sad.
Theory 4: Putin is a KGB agent

After his famous first meeting with Putin, the newly elected President George W Bush declared at a press conference that he had looked into the Russian’s eyes and seen his soul. His advisers were mortified. “I visibly stiffened,” national security adviser Condoleezza Rice wrote in her memoirs. Secretary of state Colin Powell pulled his president aside. “You may have seen all that” in his eyes, Powell told W, “but I still look in his eyes and I see K-G-B. Remember,” he added ominously, “there’s a reason he’s fluent in German.” Vice President Dick Cheney felt the same way: Every time he saw Putin, he told people, “I think KGB, KGB, KGB.”

And ever since then, it’s been the same way. Whenever Putin tried to be nice to someone, it was because he was a KGB agent, manipulating them. And whenever he was mean – as when he introduced a dog-fearing Angela Merkel to his black labrador retriever Connie – this, too, was because he was a KGB agent, angling for psychological advantage.

That the KGB formed the bulk of Putin’s professional experience is beyond doubt – he worked there from the day he graduated college in 1974 until at least August 1991. And, what is more, the KGB was not just a company, but a university: at the Higher School of the KGB, in Moscow, which Putin attended, young agents took university-level classes. It was important, the KGB higher-ups believed, that the cadres understand the world they were being trained to subvert and manipulate. It is entirely likely that Putin kept in touch with his former KGB associates after 1991, while serving in the St Petersburg mayor’s office. And it is true that Putin has brought many of his former KGB colleagues with him to the highest levels of government.
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And yet I can’t help but find the KGB hypothesis unsatisfying. When people such as Rice and Powell and Cheney speak of Putin’s KGB past, they are suggesting that he treats politics as essentially a contest in manipulation. People are either his agents, whom he is running, or his adversaries, whom he is trying to weaken. This is a ruthless worldview, but don’t many people in politics act this way? Aren’t there a lot of bullies who divide people into those they can control and those they can’t? Isn’t that how Dick Cheney operated, for example? That doesn’t make it an acceptable way to go through the world. It just doesn’t seem particularly unique to the KGB.

But the KGB label has other uses in western mouths. It is synecdoche for the Soviet Union, and Putin-as-Soviet-revanchist, with a hammer in one hand and a sickle in the other, is one of his chief avatars in the western press. What exactly is meant by this? Certainly not that anyone thinks Putin supports a historic union of the proletariat (the hammer) and the peasantry (the sickle), nor that he is an actual communist who wants to expropriate the bourgeoisie. Rather the USSR is meant here in its aspect as an aggressive imperial power that occupied half of eastern Europe. And it is true that Putin seems to feel about the countries on the Russian periphery that they are not full countries with rights and sovereignty – it’s fair to say he is an imperialist. What is unfair (to the Soviet Union, really) is to suggest that his imperialism is specifically Soviet in nature. The Soviets did not invent imperialism; the Russian Empire, for example, whose basic geography the Soviets managed to keep intact, did not become an empire by not conquering native Arctic peoples, prosecuting brutal decades-long wars in the Caucasus, and lopping off parts of Poland. Putin is a Russian imperialist, full stop.

But finally, of course, there is a moral connotation to saying that someone is “KGB”, because the Soviet KGB carried out assassinations, harassed and imprisoned dissidents, and was one of the pioneers of what came to be known as fake news. But the idea that anyone who walked its halls was pure evil is as blinkered as the KGB’s own idea of itself as the one uncorrupted, “professional” institution in late Soviet life.
Putin and his dog, Connie, with the canine-fearing Angela Merkel
Putin and his dog, Connie, with the canine-fearing Angela Merkel Photograph: STRINGER/AFP/Getty Images

The KGB was a giant organisation – in the 1980s it employed hundreds of thousands of people. After it started shedding staff in the 1990s, we learned that KGB agents came in all shapes and sizes. There was Philipp Bobkov, for example, who once persecuted Soviet dissidents, but who after the Soviet Union’s collapse became an employee of the media oligarch Vladimir Gusinsky and a thoughtful commentator on the old KGB. Other KGB agents went into the private sector as surveillance specialists or hired assassins. There were KGB agents who stayed on with the FSB and tried to fight organised crime. There were KGB agents who stayed on with the FSB and used their positions to abet organised crime, to murder innocent citizens, and to amass small private fortunes. There were former KGB agents who fought bravely in Chechnya and there were former KGB agents who committed war crimes there. There was Alexander Litvinenko, the KGB agent turned FSB agent who was ordered by his corrupt superiors to kill the oligarch Boris Berezovsky, and who instead of doing so went public. Eventually in fear for his life he fled the country, settling in London where he cooperated with western intelligence agencies and published numerous anti-Putin broadsides. Years later, he was poisoned by a large dose of Polonium-210 in London by another former KGB agent, Andrei Lugovoi.
Theory 5: Putin is a killer
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Though I now live in New York, I was born in Russia and sometimes write about Russia. This means that people often share their opinions of Putin with me. I remember one evening in March 2006, when I was introduced to a well-known French photographer. Upon learning that I was Russian, she said, “Pou-tine?” The French pronunciation was emasculating to the Russian President, making him sound like those Canadian french fries with gravy on them. “Pou-tine,” said the photographer, “is a stone-cold killer.”

I had heard this opinion before from some Russian oppositionists, but it was the first time I had encountered it in New York. Perhaps because the photographer was French, or perhaps because she was a photographer, the opinion struck me as primarily aesthetic: Putin was a killer because of his cold, bloodless face, his expressionless eyes, his refusal to smile. A few months later, Litvinenko was poisoned in London, and the journalist Anna Politkovskaya was shot while returning home with some groceries in downtown Moscow. The view that Putin was a killer became much more widespread.

I have no wish to dispute that characterisation here. Putin has launched violent, deadly wars against Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine, and I agree with the recent British inquiry that concluded that Putin “probably” approved of the assassination of Litvinenko. But the launching of aggressive wars and the killing of a former operative who has defected are hardly the sort of thing that will get you kicked out of the international community.

No, there is another sense in which Putin is believed to be a murderer; it was the subject of much discussion in the United States during the strange rise of Donald Trump. During the Republican primaries, the conservative TV host Joe Scarborough, otherwise famously cosy with Trump, pressed the candidate about his sympathies for Putin – who, in Scarborough’s words, “kills journalists and political opponents”. A few days later, on a more prominent Sunday-morning politics programme, the former White House adviser George Stephanopoulos challenged Trump again. When Trump protested that “nobody’s proven that he’s killed anybody, as far as I’m concerned”, Stephanopoulos confidently replied: “There have been many allegations that he was behind the killing of Anna Politkovskaya.” Trump parried as best he could. But the issue obviously hasn’t gone away. In an interview before the Super Bowl in early February, Trump was confronted by Fox blowhard Bill O’Reilly. “Putin’s a killer,” said O’Reilly, to which Trump infamously (though accurately) responded, “There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think? Our country’s so innocent?”
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“I don’t know of any government leaders that are killers,” said O’Reilly. He did not mean that he didn’t know of any government leaders who had ordered the invasion of Iraq or who had signed off on dozens of drone strikes or shoot-to-kill missions such as the one that ended the life of Osama bin Laden. He meant that he didn’t know of any leaders who went around killing regular folks.

The trouble with this accusation is not that it is false, but that, like most Putinology, it is sloppy. When most people accuse Putin of killing “journalists and political opponents”, they mean Politkovskaya, killed in 2006, and the opposition leader and former deputy prime minister Boris Nemtsov, killed in 2015. Allegations that Putin was behind the killing of Politkovskaya and Nemtsov do exist – but very few people with knowledge of the cases believe them. What they do believe is that Politkovskaya and Nemtsov were killed by associates of Ramzan Kadyrov, the violent dictator of Chechnya. In the Nemtsov case, the evidence for the involvement of people close to Kadyrov is overwhelming. In the Politkovskaya case, it is more circumstantial (and with Politkovskaya there is considerable evidence of other efforts to harm her, including an earlier poisoning attempt that looked more like a government operation), but still the most likely scenario.

And yet Kadyrov’s involvement does not absolve Putin, because Kadyrov works for Putin. It has been widely reported that Putin was baffled and angry over the Nemtsov killing and refused for weeks to take Kadyrov’s phone calls. On the other hand, here we are almost two years later, and Kadyrov is still in charge of Chechnya. He was put there by Putin. So if Putin did not directly order these killings – and, again, it is the consensus view among most journalists and analysts that he did not – he nonetheless continues to work with and support those who did.

With Putin the killer, we reach something like Putinology’s conceptual blind spot. What we seem to be dealing with, in Russia, is neither a failed state, where the government has no power, nor a totalitarian state, where it has all the power, but something in between. Putin does not order killings, and yet killings happen. Putin ordered the takeover of Crimea, but, as best as anyone can tell, he seems not to have ordered the invasion of eastern Ukraine. That invasion appears to have been undertaken as a freelance operation by a small group of mercenaries funded by a well-connected Russian businessman. Real Russian troops came later. But if Putin isn’t in charge of everything – if there are powerful forces operating outside of Putin’s say-so – what’s the point of Putinology? On this point, Putinology is silent.
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The absolute worst crime of which Putin has been accused is the bombing of several apartment blocks in Moscow in 1999. In September of that year, with President Boris Yeltsin ill, presidential elections just around the corner, and a relatively unknown Putin recently moved from heading the FSB to running the government as Yeltsin’s prime minister, two large apartment buildings blew up in Moscow, killing nearly 300 people. A few days later there was another building explosion, this time in the southern city of Volgodonsk. And a few days after that, in a bizarre incident, some men were caught by local police planting what appeared to be explosives in the basement of a building in Ryazan – the men turned out to be from the FSB. They quickly removed the apparent bomb and declared the whole thing a “training exercise” meant to test the vigilance of the populace and the police.

Though the government immediately accused Chechen terrorists of planting the bombs, and used this as justification for its invasion of Chechnya, a persistent minority has always insisted the government itself was responsible. (Litvinenko was one of the earliest and most vocal proponents of this theory.) A public commission to investigate the allegations was set up by the Soviet chemist turned dissident Sergei Kovalyov. Two members of the commission, Sergei Yushenkov and Yuri Shchekochikhin, were killed in 2003. Yushenkov was shot outside his apartment building; Shchekochikhin was poisoned.

The question of the Russian government’s involvement in the bombings has remained a vexed one. The most authoritative account of the available evidence was written up a few years ago by John Dunlop of the Hoover Institute. While careful not to claim to have settled the case definitively, Dunlop argued that there is compelling evidence that the bombings were ordered by the Yeltsin inner circle and carried out by the FSB.

And yet here, too, Putin evades us. If the apartment bombings really were a palace plot, it was not Putin’s palace but Yeltsin’s that plotted them. And indeed the political killings that seem to characterise the Putin years also characterised the Yeltsin ones. This does not, again, absolve Putin of anything. But it points to a longer and more complex period of violence, of groups inside and outside the government employing assassination and terror as a political weapon, and not just the machinations of one evil man. If Putin, as president, is unable to stop this violence, then maybe someone else should be president; if Putin, as president, is a party to the violence, then certainly someone else should be.

But on our end, it behoves us to be judicious. The practitioners of Putinology are maddeningly imprecise, and in no area of Putinology is their imprecision more damaging. When George Stephanopoulos appears on national TV and declares that Putin ordered the killing of Anna Politkovskaya, it makes it that much harder to pin the blame on Putin for things that he did, demonstrably and undoubtedly, do.
Theory 6: Putin is a kleptocrat
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Until around 2009, the complaints of Putin’s liberal critics in Russia, amplified by western journalists and statesmen, centred on his abuses of human rights. He was the censor of the Russian media, the butcher of Chechnya, a total stick in the mud during our glorious invasion of Iraq, the killer of Litvinenko, and the invader of Georgia. It took the anti-corruption activist Alexei Navalny to fundamentally shift the discourse around Putin away from these abuses and towards something else: the theft of Russians’ money. Navalny, a corporate lawyer and online anti-corruption activist, concluded that in contemporary Russia, human rights was not a winning issue, but money was. (He memorably dubbed Putin’s United Russia a “party of crooks and thieves”.) In this account, soon taken up by western Putinologists, Putin was no longer a scary monster but something simpler and more manageable: a thief.

The accusation had the virtue of being unquestionably true. Either that, or a surprising number of Putin’s old friends were business geniuses, because in the period since he came to power, they had become billionaires. It was one thing for the Berezovskys and Khodorkovskys and Abramoviches to emerge from the vicious scramble of the 1990s with billions in their pockets – certainly they could not have made those billions were it not for their proximity to the Yeltsin regime, but they also had to survive the wilds of early Russian capitalism. They were geniuses of a kind. Whereas the only genius ever demonstrated by Putin’s billionaire friends was befriending the future president of Russia.

If Putin liked his friends (which he seemed to) and if his friends liked lining their pockets (which they definitely did), then it followed that hitting Putin’s friends in their wallets would cause Putin to pull back from some of his more outrageous foreign policy gambits, most notably in Ukraine. This was the genesis of the “targeted” sanctions imposed in 2014 by the US and EU against Putin’s “inner circle”.

If we do not hear so much anymore about Putin’s kleptocracy, it may be because these sanctions failed to alter the behaviour of Putin on the world stage. No doubt Putin’s friends, and Putin himself, did not enjoy the sanctions: Putin’s friends because they were no longer allowed to travel to their favourite vacation spots in Spain; Putin because the sanctions put him beyond the pale of the international order. It was embarrassing.

But this did not stop Putin from stalling and undermining the Minsk accords meant to halt the fighting in eastern Ukraine, nor did it stop Putin from pursuing his brutal intervention in the Syrian civil war. If Putin’s friends were begging him to come to his senses, he wasn’t listening. More likely, Putin’s friends knew that they had been the beneficiaries of his largesse, his unlikely rise to power, and that they had to support him, come what may. Kleptocrats are not the types to organise successful palace coups. For that, you need true believers. If there is a true believer among them, he has yet to show his face. In fact, it appears the closest thing to a true believer is Putin himself.

Putin lives a fairly modest day-to-day existence. Yes, he has a palace on the Black Sea, built with pilfered funds, but he doesn’t actually live in it. In fact, it is unlikely that he will ever live in it. The palace is, in a way, the most hopeful thing that Putin is building – a promise of his eventual retirement, and under circumstances where he is not torn from limb to limb by a mob that has entered the Kremlin and overpowered his personal guards.
Theory 7: Putin is named Vladimir

A recent article published on the website of a respected American magazine warned readers that the end of communism “doesn’t mean that Russia has dropped its primary mission of destabilising Europe”, and described Putin as “a former KGB agent who, it is no accident, shares the name Vladimir Ilyich with Lenin”. When it was pointed out that Putin does not, in fact, share the name Vladimir Ilyich with Lenin – his name is Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin – the article was corrected to say that it is no accident that Putin shares the name Vladimir with Lenin. If it is not an accident, this may be because it is one of the most common Russian names. But still, it cannot be denied. Both Putin and Lenin are named Vladimir.
‘The outpouring of Putinalysis was a function of wanting to wish Trump away, to blame him on someone else. Surely we could not have elected this bigoted idiot-narcissist – surely he must have been forced on us from somewhere else.’
‘The outpouring of Putinalysis was a function of wanting to wish Trump away, to blame him on someone else. Surely we could not have elected this bigoted idiot-narcissist – surely he must have been forced on us from somewhere else.’ Photograph: Dmitri Lovetsky/AP

The Putin-is-named-Vladimir hypothesis is either the historic high point of Putinology, or its nadir, depending on your perspective. But the confident proclamation of expertise by someone who does not technically know Putin’s name is surely a sign of something. It’s a sign that most Putinology is not and has never been about Putin. In the weeks before and after the Trump inauguration, the outpouring of Putinalysis was a function of wanting to wish Trump away, to blame him on someone else. Surely we could not have elected this bigoted idiot-narcissist – surely he must have been forced on us from somewhere else.
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There is no reason at this point to dispute the consensus view of most intelligence analysts that Russian agents hacked the DNC and then leaked the emails to Julian Assange; it is also a well-known fact that Putin hated Hillary Clinton.

Furthermore, it is true that the election was very close, and it did not take much to tip the result to one side. But it is also essential to remember that there was hardly anything damaging in the leaked DNC emails.

Compared to the 40-year cycle of US deindustrialisation, during which only the rich gained in wealth; the 25-year rightwing war on the Clintons; the eight-year-old Tea Party assault on facts, immigration and taxes; a tepid, centrist campaign; and a supposed late-breaking revelation from the director of the FBI about the dubious investigation of Clinton’s use of a private email server – well, compared to all those factors, the leaked DNC emails must rank low on the list of reasons for Trump’s victory. And yet, according to a recent report, Hillary Clinton and her campaign still blame the Russians – and, by extension, Barack Obama, who did not make a big issue of the hacks before November – for her electoral debacle. In this instance, thinking about Putin helps not to think about everything else that went wrong, and what needs to be done to fix it.

This evasion is the essence of Putinology, which seeks solace in the undeniable but faraway badness of Putin at the expense of confronting the far more uncomfortable badness in front of one’s face. Putinology predates the 2016 election by a decade, and yet what we have seen in connection to Trump these past few months has been its Platonic ideal.

Here in front of us is a man – Donald J Trump – who has said countless cruel and bigoted things and proposed cruel and bigoted policies, who is a pathological liar, who has failed in almost everything he has ever tried and who surrounds himself with conmen and billionaires. And yet, day after day, there is breathless excitement over each new data point in the effort to uncover Trump’s secret/hidden connections to Russia – each one inflated by the hope that this, now, finally, will render him illegitimate, remove him from the White House, and end the liberal nightmare of having actually lost an election to this hateful dope.

If Donald Trump is impeached and imprisoned for conspiring with a foreign power to undermine American democracy, I will celebrate as much as the next American. And yet in the long run, the Russia card is not just bad politics, it is intellectual and moral bankruptcy. It is an attempt to blame the deep and abiding problems of our country on a foreign power. As some commentators have pointed out, it is a page from the playbook of none other than Putin himself.
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 17 2017, 20:05:12     :

https://www.inopressa.ru/article/16jun2017/bloomberg/putin_bersh.html#
Èíòåðâüþ ñ Ïóòèíûì âñåãäà áåññìûñëåííû

"Êèíîðåæèññåðà Îëèâåðà Ñòîóíà êðèòèêóþò çà òî, ÷òî îí çàäàâàë ïðåçèäåíòó Âëàäèìèðó Ïóòèíó ñëèøêîì ïðîñòûå âîïðîñû, æóðíàëèñòêó NBC News Ìåãèí Êåëëè - çà òî, ÷òî îíà çàäàâàëà âðàæäåáíûå âîïðîñû, íî Ïóòèí, òåì íå ìåíåå, ñìîã ëåãêî îòìàõíóòüñÿ. Òàê êàê æå áðàòü èíòåðâüþ ó Ïóòèíà, ÷òîáû óäîâëåòâîðèòü òðåáîâàòåëüíûõ êðèòèêîâ?" - ïèøåò êîëóìíèñò Bloomberg Ëåîíèä Áåðøèäñêèé.

"ß íèêîãäà íå áðàë èíòåðâüþ ó ðîññèéñêîãî ëèäåðà, õîòÿ ÿ è âñòðåòèëñÿ ñ íèì âî âðåìÿ åãî ïåðâîãî ïðåçèäåíòñêîãî ñðîêà â ìîþ áûòíîñòü ãëàâíûì ðåäàêòîðîì äåëîâîé ìîñêîâñêîé ãàçåòû, - ðàññêàçûâàåò àâòîð. - Îñíîâûâàÿñü íà ýòîì îïûòå è íà ÷òåíèè è ïðîñìîòðå áåñ÷èñëåííûõ èíòåðâüþ ñ íèì, ÿ ñêëîíÿþñü ê òîìó, ÷òî íèêòî íå ñïðàâèòñÿ ñ Ïóòèíûì ëó÷øå, ÷åì ðîññèéñêèå èçáèðàòåëè íà åãî åæåãîäíîé ïðÿìîé ëèíèè. Îíè çàäàþò âîïðîñû òàêîãî òèïà: "Ïî÷åìó ìîÿ çàðïëàòà ó÷èòåëüíèöû íà÷àëüíûõ êëàññîâ â Èðêóòñêîé îáëàñòè òàêàÿ íèçêàÿ?" èëè æå: "Ãäå íîâàÿ êâàðòèðà, êîòîðóþ ìíå îáåùàëè êàê ïîñòðàäàâøåé îò íàâîäíåíèÿ?" Ëåãêî ïðåäñòàâèòü, êàê äåðãàþòñÿ ìåñòíûå ÷èíîâíèêè, ïîêà Ïóòèí îáåùàåò ïðîâåðèòü êîíêðåòíûé ñëó÷àé".

"Êîãäà Ïóòèí ðàçãîâàðèâàåò ñ ïðîôåññèîíàëüíûìè èíòåðâüþåðàìè, åãî îòâåòû, êîòîðûå ãîäàìè ñëîâíî âûòÿãèâàëèñü èç ñòîïêè êàðòî÷åê ñ òåçèñàìè, èìåþò òó æå ôóíêöèþ. Îíè ÿâëÿþòñÿ ñèãíàëàìè è ñîîáùåíèÿìè äëÿ êîãî-òî, êîãî íåò â êîìíàòå, íî ýòî ëèøü âòîðè÷íûå ñèãíàëû ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ñ òåì, ÷òî Ïóòèí â äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè äåëàåò", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Ïî ìíåíèþ Áåðøèäñêîãî, "áåññìûñëåííî ñóäèòü æóðíàëèñòà èëè ðåæèññåðà ïî òîìó, ÷òî îí èëè îíà ñïðàøèâàþò ó Ïóòèíà, èëè ïî òîìó, êàê òîò îòâå÷àåò. Ïóáëè÷íûå âçàèìîäåéñòâèÿ Ïóòèíà â ñóùíîñòè îäíîñòîðîííè, è, õîòÿ ìîæåò ïîêàçàòüñÿ, ÷òî îí ðåàãèðóåò íà ñîáåñåäíèêà, íà ñàìîì äåëå îí íå âçàèìîäåéñòâóåò ñ èíòåðâüþåðàìè èëè ñ òåìè, êòî çàäàåò åìó âîïðîñû âî âðåìÿ åãî òùàòåëüíî ñðåæèññèðîâàííûõ ïðÿìûõ ëèíèé è ïðåññ-êîíôåðåíöèé, - îí èñïîëüçóåò èõ. Âñå, ÷òî îíè ìîãóò ñäåëàòü â îòâåò, ýòî ïîïûòàòüñÿ èñïîëüçîâàòü è åãî òîæå - ÷òîáû çàðàáîòàòü, ÷òîáû óëó÷øèòü ñâîå ïîëîæåíèå èëè ïîïðîáîâàòü ðåøèòü ñâîè æèçíåííûå ïðîáëåìû".

"ß íå ïðèïîìíþ, - ïðîäîëæàåò êîëóìíèñò, - íè îäíîãî èíòåðâüþ èëè ïóáëè÷íîãî âûñòóïëåíèÿ, â êîòîðîì áû Ïóòèí ðàñêðûë ÷òî-òî ñëó÷àéíî èëè ïîä äàâëåíèåì. Ãëàâíûå ðåäàêòîðû èçäàíèé, íà÷èíàÿ ñ The Wall Street Journal è êîí÷àÿ íåìåöêèì òàáëîèäîì Bild, çàäàâàëè åìó îñòðûå, ñëîæíûå, ëîæíî-ëåãêèå è ïñåâäîíàèâíûå âîïðîñû. Îí ïðîâîäèë ÷åòûðåõ÷àñîâûå êîíôåðåíöèè è ïÿòè÷àñîâûå ïðÿìûå ëèíèè, è âñå äî îäíîãî ýòè âûñòóïëåíèÿ áûëè îáäóìàííûìè è íàöåëåííûìè íà êîíêðåòíóþ àóäèòîðèþ, áåç ýìîöèé. Åãî ïðèòâîðñòâî âñåãäà íàìåðåííî, à åãî îòêëîíåíèÿ îò ôàêòîâ íàöåëåíû íà óñèëåíèÿ ìåññåäæà".

" ñëó÷àå ñ èíîñòðàííûìè èíòåðâüþåðàìè åãî àóäèòîðèåé ÿâëÿþòñÿ ïðàâèòåëüñòâà è ïîëèòè÷åñêèé èñòåáëèøìåíò èõ ñòðàí è, â ìåíüøåé ñòåïåíè, âíóòðåííÿÿ àóäèòîðèÿ, êîòîðàÿ æäåò, ÷òî îí óñòîèò ïðîòèâ Çàïàäà, - ãîâîðèòñÿ äàëåå. - Åãî ìåññåäæ èíîñòðàííûì ëèäåðàì íå ïîìåíÿëñÿ çà 17 ëåò: "Ðîññèÿ - ýòî ñóâåðåííàÿ äåðæàâà ñ ðÿäîì èñòîðè÷åñêèõ èíòåðåñîâ, êîòîðûå îíà áóäåò ïðåñëåäîâàòü âíå çàâèñèìîñòè íè îò ÷åãî; çàïàäíûå äåðæàâû íå ìîãóò ãîâîðèòü Ðîññèè, ÷òî äåëàòü".

" ñëó÷àå ñ ïðåññ-êîíôåðåíöèÿìè è ïðÿìûìè ëèíèÿìè, - ïðîäîëæàåò Áåðøèäñêèé, - ðå÷ü èäåò î ìåñòíûõ ÷èíîâíèêàõ è îñíîâíûõ èçáèðàòåëÿõ Ïóòèíà - òåõ, êòî âåðèò â äîáðîãî öàðÿ è ïàòåðíàëèñòñêîå ãîñóäàðñòâî. Ñèãíàë Ïóòèíà ýòèì àóäèòîðèÿì òàêæå íèêîãäà íå ìåíÿåòñÿ: "Ó ìåíÿ âñå ïîä êîíòðîëåì, è ÿ âìåøàþñü â ëþáîé âîïðîñ óïðàâëåíèÿ, êàêèì áû íåçíà÷èòåëüíûì îí íè áûë, ðàäè ìîèõ âåðíûõ ïîääàííûõ".

"Ó "Ïðÿìîé ëèíèè" â ÷åòâåðã áûëà íåîáû÷íàÿ ÷åðòà: íåöåíçóðèðîâàííûå âîïðîñû, ïîñëàííûå â âèäå ñîîáùåíèé, ìåëüêàëè íà ýêðàíå. Íåêîòîðûå èõ íèõ áûëè æåñòêèìè: "Çà÷åì âû íàâÿçûâàåòå àâòîðèòàðíûé ðåæèì ñòðàíå, êîòîðàÿ ñòàíîâèòñÿ òîòàëèòàðíîé?" èëè "Âû äåéñòâèòåëüíî äóìàåòå, ÷òî ëþäè âåðÿò â ýòîò öèðê ñ çàðàíåå ñîãëàñîâàííûìè âîïðîñàìè?". Ïóòèí ñêàçàë ìîäåðàòîðó, ÷òî îí âèäåë âîïðîñû íà ýêðàíå, íî îí íå ïðåäïðèíÿë íèêàêèõ ïîïûòîê íà íèõ îòêëèêíóòüñÿ. Êîíå÷íûì ðåçóëüòàòîì áûëî òèïè÷íîå èíòåðâüþ ñ Ïóòèíûì: øàáëîííûå ðåàêöèè, êîòîðûå ÿ ñëûøàë ìíîãî ðàç", - ïèøåò Áåðøèäñêèé.

"Ñòîèò ëè äîáèâàòüñÿ èíòåðâüþ ñ ðîññèéñêèì ïðåçèäåíòîì ðàäè òàêèõ ðåàêöèé - èëè ìîë÷àíèÿ? Íó, ìîæåò, ÷òîáû ïîõâàñòàòüñÿ", - çàêëþ÷àåò æóðíàëèñò.
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 17 2017, 20:14:35     :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd06O_ABATA
http://www.bards.ru/archives/part.php?id=15223
Ïðîôåññèîíàëàì —
çàðïëàòà íàâàëîì.
Ïëåâàòü, ÷òî íà ë¸ä îíè çóáû ïëþþò:
Èì ïëàòÿò äåíüæèùè —
îãðîìíûå òûùè;
È äàæå çà ïðîèãðûø è çà íè÷üþ.

Èãðîê õèò¸ð — ïóñòü
áåð¸ò íà êîðïóñ,
Áü¸ò â çóá íîãîé è — íè â çóá íîãîé.
À ñàì â èòîãå
êàëå÷èò íîãè —
È, âìåñòî êëþøêè, èä¸ò ñ êëþêîé.
...
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 26 2017, 21:39:37     :

https://www.inopressa.ru/article/26jun2017/inotheme/putin_stone_obzor26.html#
 ÷åì õàðèçìà Ïóòèíà? Ñïðîñèòå ó Ñòîóíà

"Èíòåðâüþ ñ Ïóòèíûì" íà Çàïàäå âûçâàëè õîð ïðîòåñòîâ, ñïîðîâ è êðèòèêè. "Ðîññèéñêèé ëèäåð íèêîìó è íèêîãäà íå äàâàë âîçìîæíîñòè òàê äîëãî åãî "äîïðàøèâàòü", - ïèøåò Liberation, - è îí íè íà ìãíîâåíüå íå îòâëåêñÿ íè îò äðàìàòóðãèè, íè îò ôîðìèðîâàíèÿ íóæíîãî èìèäæà". Ìàøà Ãåññåí ñïèñûâàåò "âîñõèùåíèå" ðåæèññåðà Ïóòèíûì íà "íåâåæåñòâî" Ñòîóíà è "íåñïîñîáíîñòü èëè íåæåëàíèå îòëè÷àòü ôàêòû îò âûìûñëà".

"Ìíîãèå àìåðèêàíöû èùóò îáúÿñíåíèÿ, ïî÷åìó Òðàìï, êàê ïðåäñòàâëÿåòñÿ, îáîæàåò Ïóòèíà. Êàê ìîæåò ìîãóùåñòâåííûé áîãàòûé àìåðèêàíåö èñïûòûâàòü ñèìïàòèþ ê ñêëîííîìó ê òèðàíèè êîððóìïèðîâàííîìó ëèäåðó âðàæäåáíîé äåðæàâû?" - ïèøåò â The New York Times æóðíàëèñòêà Ìàøà Ãåññåí. Îòâåòû ìîæíî íàéòè â äîêóìåíòàëüíîì ôèëüìå Îëèâåðà Ñòîóíà "Èíòåðâüþ ñ Ïóòèíûì". "Ïîõîæå, Ñòîóí èñïûòûâàåò òî æå ñàìîå ãîðÿ÷åå âîñõèùåíèå", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Ïî ìíåíèþ æóðíàëèñòêè, â îñíîâå ýòîãî âîñõèùåíèÿ - ïÿòü ìîìåíòîâ.

1. "Ðàñïëûâ÷àòûå è â îñíîâíîì íåïðàâèëüíûå ïðåäñòàâëåíèÿ î áèîãðàôèè Ïóòèíà è î ðîññèéñêîé èñòîðèè". "Íåâåæåñòâî Ñòîóíà â òîì, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ åãî òåìû, ïîçâîëÿåò åìó íåêðèòè÷åñêè ñëóøàòü, êîãäà Ïóòèí ëæåò", - ïèøåò Ãåññåí.

2. "Ëþáîâü ê ìîãóùåñòâó è âåëè÷èþ". Àâòîð ïðèâîäèò íåñêîëüêî ïðèìåðîâ èç ôèëüìà: íàïðèìåð, "Ñòîóí äåêëàìèðóåò Ïóòèíó åãî ñîáñòâåííóþ ðå÷ü îá àííåêñèè Êðûìà. Ñòîóíó, ïîõîæå, íðàâèòñÿ ïðîèçíîñèòü ñëîâà Ïóòèíà. Ïóòèíó ÿâíî ïðèÿòíî ñëûøàòü ñîáñòâåííóþ ðå÷ü".

3. "Îáùèå ïðåäðàññóäêè. Ñòîóí è Ïóòèí ñòðàøíî áîÿòñÿ ìóñóëüìàí".

4."Íåñïîñîáíîñòü èëè íåæåëàíèå îòëè÷àòü ôàêòû îò âûìûñëà. Òàê, Ñòîóí ñïðàøèâàåò Ïóòèíà î ïîêóøåíèÿõ íà åãî æèçíü. "Åñòü ïÿòü íåïîääåëüíûõ ïîïûòîê, î êîòîðûõ ÿ ñëûøàë", - ãîâîðèò îí óâåðåííî. Ýòî ïðèìå÷àòåëüíî, òàê êàê æóðíàëèñòû, îñâåùàâøèå òåìó Ïóòèíà (â òîì ÷èñëå ÿ) íå ñëûøàëè íè î ïÿòè, íè î ÷åòûðåõ, íè äàæå îá îäíîé òàêîé ïîïûòêå", - ïèøåò Ãåññåí.

5. "Ìîðàëüíûé íåéòðàëèòåò. ×òîáû ïðàêòèêîâàòü íåâåæåñòâî, ðàñèñòñêèå ïðåäðàññóäêè, ëþáîâü ê ìîãóùåñòâó è ïîëíîå íåáðåæåíèå ê äîñòîâåðíîñòè ôàêòîâ, íóæíî æèòü â ìèðå, ãäå âñå ìîæåò çíà÷èòü âñå ÷òî óãîäíî è íè÷òî íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ áåññïîðíûì", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

Óñòàëîãî è íåðâíîãî Îëèâåðà Ñòîóíà, ïðèåõàâøåãî íà íîðâåæñêèé ôåñòèâàëü Starmus, ñîáðàâøèé çâåçä íàóêè è ðàçâëåêàòåëüíîé èíäóñòðèè, ïðåñëåäóþò ñïîðû, ñîîáùàåò êîððåñïîíäåíò La Repubblica. Åãî äîêóìåíòàëüíûé ôèëüì "Èíòåðâüþ ñ Ïóòèíûì" óæå âûçâàë õîð ïðîòåñòîâ â ÑØÀ, à ñêîðî îí âûéäåò â Èòàëèè.

 èíòåðâüþ La Repubblica Ñòîóí ñêàçàë: "Çà ÷åòûðå ÷àñà, íàñûùåííûå èíôîðìàöèåé, Ïóòèí âïåðâûå ïðåäñòàâëÿåò ñâîþ âåðñèþ ôàêòîâ, íà÷èíàÿ ñ àìåðèêàíñêèõ âûáîðîâ è êîí÷àÿ âîéíîé â Ñèðèè. Ýòî åãî âåðñèÿ, íå ìîÿ. Âûñëóøàòü åå âàæíî, ïîòîìó ÷òî çäåñü ìû íà ñàìîì äåëå ýòîãî íèêîãäà íå äåëàëè. Åå èñêàæàþò îáâèíåíèÿìè ïðîòèâ íåãî".

"Âî ìíîãèõ ñëó÷àÿõ ýòî òÿæêèå îáâèíåíèÿ, íàïðèìåð òå, ÷òî âûÿâëåíû ñïåöèàëüíûì äîêëàäîì ÖÐÓ", - îòìåòèë æóðíàëèñò. "Íåò äîêàçàòåëüñòâ òîãî, ÷òî àìåðèêàíñêèå âûáîðû ïîäâåðãëèñü ðîññèéñêîìó âìåøàòåëüñòâó, - âîçðàçèë ðåæèññåð. - ß äóìàþ, ÷òî ýòî ÷àñòü ïðîïàãàíäèñòñêîé èãðû Àìåðèêè (...). Âçãëÿä è ÿçûê òåëà Ïóòèíà î ìíîãîì ãîâîðÿò".

"Êîãäà âû âñòðåòèëèñü ñ Ïóòèíûì è ñêîëüêî ðàç âñòðå÷àëèñü?" - ïîèíòåðåñîâàëñÿ àâòîð. "Âî âðåìÿ ñúåìîê "Ñíîóäåíà". Îí ðàññêàçàë ìíå ñâîþ âåðñèþ òîé èñòîðèè, - îòâåòèë Ñòîóí. - Îí áûë îòêðûòûì, ãîòîâûì ïîìî÷ü. Çàòåì ÿ âîçâðàùàëñÿ â Ðîññèþ äåâÿòü ðàç, è êàæäûé ðàç Ïóòèí óäåëÿë ìíå íåìíîãî âðåìåíè.  êîíöå êîíöîâ ÿ ñíÿë 20 ÷àñîâ è èç íèõ ñìîíòèðîâàë ÷åòûðå ÷àñà".

" îáùåì, âû åìó âåðèòå", - ïîäûòîæèë êîððåñïîíäåíò. "ß íå áîþñü Ðîññèè, ÿ íå äóìàþ, ÷òî îíà õî÷åò ñäåëàòü ÷òî-òî ïëîõîå Çàïàäó", - ïðèçíàëñÿ ðåæèññåð. "Ñåãîäíÿ âîåííûå àïïàðàòû äàæå íå ïîçâîëÿþò Òðàìïó âñòðåòèòüñÿ ñ Ïóòèíûì, - ïîñåòîâàë Ñòîóí. - Íî ÍÀÒÎ - ýòî ïåðåæèòîê, îíî íå èìååò íèêàêîãî ñìûñëà. Ðàíî èëè ïîçäíî ìû ïðèäåì ê ðàçðåøåíèþ ñèòóàöèè: Åâðîïà è Ðîññèÿ - ýòî ÷àñòü îäíîé è òîé æå èñòîðèè".

Àìåðèêàíñêèé ðåæèññåð Îëèâåð Ñòîóí âûïóñòèë ââîäÿùèé â çàáëóæäåíèå ÷åòûðåõ÷àñîâîé "äîêóìåíòàëüíûé" ôèëüì â ôîðìå áåñåäû ñ ðîññèéñêèì ïðåçèäåíòîì, ïèøåò æóðíàëèñòêà Liberation Âåðîíèêà Äîðìàí, ñîîáùàÿ, ÷òî âî Ôðàíöèè îí áóäåò äåìîíñòðèðîâàòüñÿ ñ ñåãîäíÿøíåãî äíÿ.

" ýïèçîäàõ î ëèõèõ 1990-õ è îá îëèãàðõàõ, î ÍÀÒÎ, ãîíêå âîîðóæåíèé, ñïåöñëóæáàõ, îòêóäà îí âûøåë, î áåäíîñòè â ñòðàíå è îòíîøåíèÿõ ñ Óêðàèíîé, îá Ýäâàðäå Ñíîóäåíå è òðàäèöèîííûõ öåííîñòÿõ Ïóòèí âûãëÿäèò âîçâûøåííî. Ðåäêî ìîæíî óâèäåòü åãî ñòîëü ñïîêîéíûì è áåçìÿòåæíûì (...), ÷åëîâå÷íûì, â îòëè÷èå îò îáðàçà ðîáîòà ñ âîñêîâûì ëèöîì, ê êîòîðîìó íàñ ïðèó÷èëà ðîññèéñêàÿ òåëåïðîïàãàíäà, ïîñêîëüêó çäåñü îí ñíÿò ïîä íåîæèäàííûì óãëîì çðåíèÿ - êàìåðà çàäåðæèâàåò ñâîé âçãëÿä íà åãî ñòàðåþùèõ ðóêàõ, íà ëûñèíå..." - ïèøåò Äîðìàí.

"ß íèñêîëüêî íå çàèñêèâàþ", - çàùèùàëñÿ Îëèâåð Ñòîóí îò ïàðèæñêèõ æóðíàëèñòîâ â ïÿòíèöó. "Îäíàêî îí âîñõèùàåòñÿ è ïîòàêàåò, - ïîëàãàåò Äîðìàí. - Îí íå ïðåêîñëîâèò ðîññèéñêîìó ïðåçèäåíòó è äàæå íå íàæèìàåò íà íåãî, êîãäà òîò åìó îáúÿñíÿåò, ÷òî ÑÌÈ â Ðîññèè ñâîáîäíû, ÷òî ãîìîñåêñóàëèñòû íèñêîëüêî íå ïðåñëåäóþòñÿ, ÷òî îí ïðèñòðóíèë îëèãàðõîâ è ÷òî íåò íè÷åãî íåçàêîííîãî â ïðèñîåäèíåíèè Êðûìà. Ìîæíî áûëî áû íàèâíî ïîâåðèòü, ÷òî àìåðèêàíåö ïëîõî ðàçáèðàåòñÿ â ðîññèéñêèõ äîñüå è èìïðîâèçèðóåò, êàê áûëî îáåùàíî. Îäíàêî íà ñàìîì äåëå Ñòîóí ïîä÷åðêèâàåò, ÷òî (...) íå âèäèò îñíîâàíèé íå âåðèòü åìó íà ñëîâî".

Ðåæèññåð æåëàåò ïðåäñòàâèòü Ïóòèíà òàêèì, êàêèì îòêàçûâàåòñÿ åãî âèäåòü Çàïàä, "áëàãîðàçóìíûì è ãîòîâûì âåñòè ïåðåãîâîðû â èíòåðåñàõ Ðîññèè, êîòîðóþ îí î÷åíü ëþáèò".

Îí çàäàåò "âîïðîñû, êîòîðûå ïîðîé ñîäåðæàò ñêðûòûå êîìïëèìåíòû èëè ïðåäïîëîæåíèÿ", ïèøåò àâòîð. "Ñëîâíî îí ïîäñêàçûâàåò òåêñò Ïóòèíó, è òîò äîâîëåí ñäåëàííûì îäîëæåíèåì (...) Ïîçâîëÿÿ Ïóòèíó ðàññóæäàòü î êîâàðíîì ðàñøèðåíèè ÍÀÒÎ ê ðîññèéñêèì ãðàíèöàì è î ãîíêå âîîðóæåíèé, î áëàãîãîâåíèè ïåðåä Ñíîóäåíîì, êîòîðûé "íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ ïðåäàòåëåì", Ñòîóí âûðàæàåò ñâîå âîçìóùåíèå âíåøíåé ïîëèòèêîé, èìïåðèàëèñòè÷åñêèìè ïîïîëçíîâåíèÿìè è òîòàëüíûì êîíòðîëåì â åãî ñîáñòâåííîé ñòðàíå", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ñòàòüå.

"Ðîññèéñêèé ëèäåð íèêîìó è íèêîãäà íå äàâàë âîçìîæíîñòè òàê äîëãî "äîïðàøèâàòü" åãî ïî ñòîëü ðàçëè÷íûì ñþæåòàì è â ñòîëü ðàçíîîáðàçíîé îêðóæàþùåé îáñòàíîâêå, ïðè ýòîì îí íè íà ìãíîâåíüå íå îòâëåêñÿ íè îò äðàìàòóðãèè, íè îò ôîðìèðîâàíèÿ íóæíîãî èìèäæà", - óòâåðæäàåò àâòîð.

"Ïóòèí íàñëàæäàëñÿ, åìó áûë èíòåðåñåí ïðîöåññ èíòåëëåêòóàëüíîãî óïðàæíåíèÿ", - ñêàçàë Îëèâåð Ñòîóí.

Äýâèä Òàíã, ñòàðûé äðóã Îëèâåðà Ñòîóíà, ðàññêàçûâàåò â Financial Times î âñòðå÷å ñ Ïóòèíûì â Êðåìëå âî âðåìÿ îäíîãî èç èíòåðâüþ.

"Ìû æäàëè âåñü äåíü. Íàêîíåö âíåçàïíî óñòàíîâèëàñü òèøèíà, ïðåðûâàåìàÿ òîëüêî ìàðøèðóþùèìè øàãàìè, - æèâîïèñóåò Òàíã. - Ïðåçèäåíò - íèæå ðîñòîì, ÷åì ÿ îæèäàë, è, ÷òî åùå íåîæèäàííåå, ñ íåáîëüøèì áðþøêîì - ñòðåìèòåëüíî âîøåë â êîìíàòó ñ îäíèì ïåðåâîä÷èêîì è îäíèì îõðàííèêîì. Ñòîóí ïîæàë Ïóòèíó ðóêó. Ìåíÿ ïðîèãíîðèðîâàëè. Ïóòèí ñåë, ïåðåâîä÷èê - ðÿäîì ñ íèì".

"Ñòîóí ñïðîñèë Ïóòèíà, âìåøèâàëñÿ ëè òîò â àìåðèêàíñêèå âûáîðû è, â ÷àñòíîñòè, ïîìîã ëè îí Äîíàëüäó Òðàìïó ïîáåäèòü. Ïóòèí ïðåçðèòåëüíî îòâåðã ýòó èäåþ. Íî êàê íàñ÷åò îò÷åòà ÖÐÓ, â êîòîðîì ãîâîðèòñÿ îá èñ÷åðïûâàþùèõ ñâèäåòåëüñòâàõ ðîññèéñêîãî âìåøàòåëüñòâà? Ïóòèí ðåçêî íàïîìíèë Ñòîóíó î "ðàçâåääàííûõ" ÖÐÓ î íàëè÷èè ó Ñàääàìà Õóñåéíà îðóæèÿ ìàññîâîãî ïîðàæåíèÿ, êîòîðûå îêàçàëèñü ïîëíîñòüþ îøèáî÷íûìè, - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ïóáëèêàöèè. - Ñòîóí íå ñìîã ïîäëîâèòü Ïóòèíà íà ïîäðîáíîñòÿõ".

Êîãäà îíè ïðîãîâîðèëè áîëåå ÷àñà, áûë ñäåëàí ïåðåðûâ. "Ýòî áûë ìîìåíò, êîòîðîãî ÿ æäàë, - ïèøåò Òàíã: - ìåíÿ íàêîíåö ïðåäñòàâèëè, è Ïóòèí ïîæàë ìíå ðóêó. ß ðàññìîòðåë åãî ëèöî - ãðóáîå è óãëîâàòîå, íî áåç ÿâíûõ òèðàíè÷åñêèõ ÷åðò - è íå îáíàðóæèë íà íåì øðàìîâ".

Ïîñëå ïåðåðûâà Ïóòèí "îáäóìàííî è ðàçâåðíóòî" îòâå÷àë Ñòîóíó íà âîïðîñû î ×å÷íå, Óêðàèíå, Êðûìå, Àôãàíèñòàíå, Ñèðèè, ÑØÀ è î ãîñïîäñòâóþùåì ìèðîâîì ïîðÿäêå. Îí íè ñ êåì íå ñîâåòîâàëñÿ, ïîä÷åðêèâàåò àâòîð.

"Ýòà âòîðàÿ ñåññèÿ ïðîäîëæàëàñü äâà ÷àñà, çíà÷èò, Ïóòèí ïî÷òè íå ïåðåâîäèë äóõ ïî÷òè ÷åòûðå ÷àñà. Íî êàçàëîñü, ÷òî åãî âûíîñëèâîñòè õâàòèò è íà áîëüøåå. ß áûë ïîëíîñòüþ èçìó÷åí, õîòÿ ìîë÷à ñèäåë è ñëóøàë", - ñîîáùàåò àâòîð.

"Âñòðå÷à çàêîí÷èëàñü â 2:00 íî÷è, è ÿ áûë ðàä äîáàâèòü ýòîò îïûò ê ìîèì âñòðå÷àì ñ Ìóãàáå, Êàñòðî è ×àâåñîì", - ïèøåò Òàíã.

"Âñå ìû âñòàëè è ïîòÿíóëèñü. ß ÷óâñòâîâàë ñåáÿ òàê, êàê áóäòî ïîáûâàë íà ñúåìî÷íîé ïëîùàäêå. ß è ïîáûâàë. Òîëüêî ãëàâíûé ãåðîé áûë íå çâåçäîé êèíî, à ðåàëüíûì ÷åëîâåêîì, îòðèöàþùèì, ÷òî ó íåãî åñòü ñåðüåçíûå äåíüãè, æåñòêèì ÷åëîâåêîì, êîòîðûé ðåäêî óëûáàåòñÿ", - ãîâîðèòñÿ â ïóáëèêàöèè. "È äà, ÿ óçíàë îäíó âåùü î Ïóòèíå: îí ïèë òîëüêî âîäó îäíîãî ðîññèéñêîãî áðåíäà èç ïëàñòèêîâîé áóòûëêè. Íàñ åþ íå óãîñòèëè", - äîáàâèë Òàíã.
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A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 12 2020, 21:48:15     :

http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/62565
Ïðåññ-êîíôåðåíöèÿ ïî èòîãàì ðîññèéñêî-ãåðìàíñêèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ

Ïî èòîãàì ðîññèéñêî-ãåðìàíñêèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ Âëàäèìèð Ïóòèí è Ôåäåðàëüíûé êàíöëåð Ãåðìàíèè Àíãåëà Ìåðêåëü ñäåëàëè çàÿâëåíèÿ äëÿ ïðåññû è îòâåòèëè íà âîïðîñû æóðíàëèñòîâ.
11 ÿíâàðÿ 2020 ãîäà
18:35
Ìîñêâà, Êðåìëü

Â.Ïóòèí: Óâàæàåìàÿ ãîñïîæà Ôåäåðàëüíûé êàíöëåð! Äàìû è ãîñïîäà!

Ìû ðàäû ïðèíèìàòü Ôåäåðàëüíîãî êàíöëåðà Ãåðìàíèè ãîñïîæó Àíãåëó Ìåðêåëü ñ ðàáî÷èì âèçèòîì â Ìîñêâå.

 õîäå ñîñòîÿâøèõñÿ ó íàñ ñåãîäíÿ ñîäåðæàòåëüíûõ è ïîëåçíûõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ áûëè çàòðîíóòû êëþ÷åâûå âîïðîñû äâóñòîðîííèõ îòíîøåíèé â ïîëèòèêå, ýêîíîìèêå, êóëüòóðíî-ãóìàíèòàðíîé ñôåðå. È êîíå÷íî, ìû ïîäðîáíî îáñóäèëè ðÿä àêòóàëüíûõ ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ ïðîáëåì.

Ïîä÷åðêíó, Ðîññèÿ ñòðåìèòñÿ âûñòðàèâàòü ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâî ñ Ôåäåðàòèâíîé Ðåñïóáëèêîé íà ïðèíöèïàõ óâàæåíèÿ, ðàâíîïðàâèÿ, âçàèìíîé âûãîäû è ó÷¸òà èíòåðåñîâ äðóã äðóãà.

ÔÐà – îäèí èç îñíîâíûõ âíåøíåýêîíîìè÷åñêèõ ïàðòí¸ðîâ íàøåé ñòðàíû: ïî îáú¸ìàì òîðãîâëè çàíèìàåò âòîðîå ìåñòî ïîñëå Êèòàéñêîé Íàðîäíîé Ðåñïóáëèêè.  ÿíâàðå–îêòÿáðå ïðîøëîãî ãîäà ðîññèéñêî-ãåðìàíñêèé òîâàðîîáîðîò ñîñòàâèë 43,8 ìèëëèàðäà äîëëàðîâ. Íåìåöêèå èíâåñòèöèè â Ðîññèè äîñòèãàþò 20 ìèëëèàðäîâ äîëëàðîâ; âñòðå÷íûå ðîññèéñêèå êàïèòàëîâëîæåíèÿ â ýêîíîìèêó Ôåäåðàòèâíîé Ðåñïóáëèêè – äåâÿòü ìèëëèàðäîâ äîëëàðîâ.

 àêòèâå Ðîññèè è Ãåðìàíèè – öåëûé ðÿä êðóïíûõ ñîâìåñòíûõ ïðîåêòîâ â îáëàñòè ýíåðãåòèêè. Ìû âûñîêî öåíèì îòâåòñòâåííóþ ïîçèöèþ ïðàâèòåëüñòâà ÔÐà â ïîääåðæêó èçâåñòíîãî âñåì ïðîåêòà «Ñåâåðíûé ïîòîê –2».

 õîäå ïåðåãîâîðîâ ìû çàòðîíóëè òàêæå âîïðîñû, ñâÿçàííûå ñ ïðîäîëæåíèåì òðàíçèòà ðîññèéñêîãî ãàçà ÷åðåç òåððèòîðèþ Óêðàèíû. Áûëî îòìå÷åíî âàæíîå çíà÷åíèå äîñòèãíóòûõ 31 äåêàáðÿ äîãîâîð¸ííîñòåé ìåæäó «Ãàçïðîìîì» è óêðàèíñêèìè ïàðòí¸ðàìè, â ñîîòâåòñòâèè ñ êîòîðûìè òðàíçèòíûå ïîñòàâêè áóäóò îñóùåñòâëÿòüñÿ â òå÷åíèå ñëåäóþùèõ ïÿòè ëåò.

Ýòè äîãîâîð¸ííîñòè íîñÿò âçàèìîâûãîäíûé è ñáàëàíñèðîâàííûé õàðàêòåð è äëÿ Ðîññèè, è äëÿ Óêðàèíû, è, áåçóñëîâíî, îòâå÷àþò èíòåðåñàì åâðîïåéñêèõ ïîòðåáèòåëåé ðîññèéñêèõ ýíåðãîíîñèòåëåé.

Ïðè îáñóæäåíèè ìåæäóíàðîäíîé è ðåãèîíàëüíîé ïîâåñòêè ïðåæäå âñåãî ðàññìîòðåíà ñèòóàöèÿ â Ëèâèè, ãäå, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ïðîäîëæàþòñÿ ìàñøòàáíûå áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ, ðàñò¸ò òåððîðèñòè÷åñêàÿ àêòèâíîñòü, à ýêîíîìèêà è ñîöèàëüíàÿ ñôåðà, ê ñîæàëåíèþ äëÿ âñåõ, äåãðàäèðóåò. Âñ¸ ýòî íå òîëüêî ïîäðûâàåò áåçîïàñíîñòü è ñòàáèëüíîñòü â ñàìîì ðåãèîíå, íî è èìååò íåãàòèâíóþ ïðîåêöèþ íà Åâðîïó. Èìåþ â âèäó íåëåãàëüíóþ ìèãðàöèþ, êîíòðàáàíäíóþ òîðãîâëþ, ðàñïðîñòðàíåíèå îðóæèÿ è íàðêîòèêîâ.
Íà ïðåññ-êîíôåðåíöèè ïî èòîãàì ðîññèéñêî-ãåðìàíñêèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ. Ñ Ôåäåðàëüíûì êàíöëåðîì Ãåðìàíèè Àíãåëîé Ìåðêåëü.
Íà ïðåññ-êîíôåðåíöèè ïî èòîãàì ðîññèéñêî-ãåðìàíñêèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ. Ñ Ôåäåðàëüíûì êàíöëåðîì Ãåðìàíèè Àíãåëîé Ìåðêåëü.
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Íà ïðåññ-êîíôåðåíöèè ïî èòîãàì ðîññèéñêî-ãåðìàíñêèõ ïåðåãîâîðîâ. Ñ Ôåäåðàëüíûì êàíöëåðîì Ãåðìàíèè Àíãåëîé Ìåðêåëü.

Âàæíî ïîëîæèòü êîíåö âîîðóæ¸ííîìó ïðîòèâîñòîÿíèþ ìåæäó Ëèâèéñêîé íàöèîíàëüíîé àðìèåé ìàðøàëà Õàôòàðà è Ïðàâèòåëüñòâîì íàöèîíàëüíîãî ñîãëàñèÿ ãîñïîäèíà Ñàðàäæà, óñòàíîâèòü ðåæèì ïðåêðàùåíèÿ îãíÿ, ïðèíÿòü ìåðû ïî âîçîáíîâëåíèþ ïîëèòè÷åñêîãî ïðîöåññà ñ êîíå÷íîé öåëüþ – ïðåîäîëåíèÿ ðàñêîëà âíóòðè ñòðàíû è ôîðìèðîâàíèÿ åäèíûõ ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ èíñòèòóòîâ. Èìåííî íà äîñòèæåíèå ýòèõ öåëåé íàïðàâëåíî ïðèíÿòîå íàìè íà äíÿõ ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Òóðöèè ñîâìåñòíîå çàÿâëåíèå ñ ïðèçûâîì ê ïðîòèâîáîðñòâóþùèì ñòîðîíàì â Ëèâèè ïðåêðàòèòü áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ íà÷èíàÿ ñ 00 ÷àñîâ çàâòðàøíåãî äíÿ. ß î ðàáîòå â Ñòàìáóëå ïîäðîáíî ïðîèíôîðìèðîâàë Ôåäåðàëüíîãî êàíöëåðà.

Ñ÷èòàåì ñâîåâðåìåííîé è èíèöèàòèâó Ãåðìàíèè ïðîâåñòè â Áåðëèíå ìåæäóíàðîäíóþ êîíôåðåíöèþ ïî Ëèâèè. ×òîáû áåðëèíñêàÿ êîíôåðåíöèÿ ïðèíåñëà âåñîìûå ðåçóëüòàòû, íåîáõîäèìî îáåñïå÷èòü ó÷àñòèå â íåé ðåàëüíî çàèíòåðåñîâàííûõ â ïîìîùè ëèâèéñêîìó óðåãóëèðîâàíèþ ãîñóäàðñòâ, à ãëàâíîå – å¸ ðåøåíèÿ äîëæíû áûòü ñîãëàñîâàíû â ïðåäâàðèòåëüíîì ïëàíå ñ ëèâèéñêèìè ñòîðîíàìè. Ñâîþ ðîëü â ýòîì ïðèçâàí ñûãðàòü è ñïåöèàëüíûé ïðåäñòàâèòåëü Ãåíåðàëüíîãî ñåêðåòàðÿ ÎÎÍ ïî Ëèâèè ãîñïîäèí Ñàëàìå.

Åñòåñòâåííî, íà ïåðåãîâîðàõ íå îáîøëè âíèìàíèåì è îáñòàíîâêó â Ñèðèéñêîé Àðàáñêîé Ðåñïóáëèêå. ß, áåçóñëîâíî, ïîäåëèëñÿ ñ ãîñïîæîé êàíöëåðîì èòîãàìè ñâîåé íåäàâíåé ïîåçäêè â Äàìàñê, ïåðåãîâîðàìè ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Àñàäîì. Ìîæíî ñ óâåðåííîñòüþ êîíñòàòèðîâàòü, ÷òî ñèòóàöèÿ â ýòîé ñòðàíå ñòàáèëèçèðóåòñÿ. Ñèðèÿ ïîñòåïåííî âîçâðàùàåòñÿ ê ìèðíîé æèçíè, âîññòàíàâëèâàåòñÿ ñèðèéñêàÿ ãîñóäàðñòâåííîñòü.

Ðîññèÿ è Ãåðìàíèÿ ðàçäåëÿþò ìíåíèå î òîì, ÷òî êîíôëèêò â Ñèðèè ìîæåò áûòü îêîí÷àòåëüíî ðåø¸í èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî ïîëèòè÷åñêèìè ñðåäñòâàìè â ñîîòâåòñòâèè ñ Ðåçîëþöèåé 2254 Ñîâåòà Áåçîïàñíîñòè ÎÎÍ. Ãëàâíîå, ÷òîáû ó ñèðèéñêîãî íàðîäà áûëà âîçìîæíîñòü ñâîáîäíî è ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíî îïðåäåëÿòü ñâî¸ áóäóùåå, áóäóùåå ñâîåé ñòðàíû. Êàê ðàç òàêîé ïîäõîä ëåæèò â îñíîâå ñîçäàíèÿ Êîíñòèòóöèîííîãî êîìèòåòà.

Êîìèòåò óæå ïðîâ¸ë äâà çàñåäàíèÿ â Æåíåâå è ñôîðìèðîâàë ðåäàêöèîííóþ êîìèññèþ, êîòîðàÿ çàéì¸òñÿ ðàçðàáîòêîé êîíñòèòóöèîííûõ îñíîâ ñèðèéñêîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà. Ïðè ýòîì Ðîññèÿ ñîâìåñòíî ñ òóðåöêîé, èðàíñêîé ñòîðîíàìè ïðîäîëæèò îñóùåñòâëÿòü â ðàìêàõ àñòàíèíñêîãî ôîðìàòà ïîñèëüíóþ ïîääåðæêó äåÿòåëüíîñòè ýòîãî êîìèòåòà.

Îáñóäèëè âîïðîñû ïîñòêîíôëèêòíîãî âîçðîæäåíèÿ Ñèðèè, óëó÷øåíèÿ ãóìàíèòàðíîãî ïîëîæåíèÿ â ñòðàíå è áåçîïàñíîãî âîçâðàùåíèÿ áåæåíöåâ. Òðåáóåòñÿ îáúåäèíèòü óñèëèÿ âñåõ îòâåòñòâåííûõ ÷ëåíîâ ìèðîâîãî ñîîáùåñòâà, ÷òîáû ïîìî÷ü ñèðèéñêèì ãîñóäàðñòâåííûì îðãàíàì, âîîáùå ñèðèéöàì â ñàìîì øèðîêîì ñìûñëå ýòîãî ñëîâà âîññòàíîâèòü îáúåêòû èíôðàñòðóêòóðû, âîäî- è ýëåêòðîñíàáæåíèÿ, áîëüíèöû, øêîëû.

Âìåñòå ñ òåì ëþáàÿ ïîìîùü Ñèðèè äîëæíà îêàçûâàòüñÿ ïî ñîãëàñîâàíèþ ñ çàêîííûìè âëàñòÿìè è ðàñïðîñòðàíÿòüñÿ íà âñå ïîñòðàäàâøèå òåððèòîðèè áåç âñÿêèõ ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûõ óñëîâèé è ïîëèòèçàöèè.

Êîíå÷íî, ìû íå ìîãëè îáîéòè ñ ãîñïîæîé Ôåäåðàëüíûì êàíöëåðîì è äðóãîé âîïðîñ, ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíûé íå òîëüêî äëÿ ðåãèîíà, íî è äëÿ âñåãî ìèðà, – ýòî âîïðîñ âîêðóã ñîõðàíåíèÿ ñîâìåñòíîãî âñåîáúåìëþùåãî ïëàíà äåéñòâèé ïî èðàíñêîé ÿäåðíîé ïðîãðàììå. Ïîñëå îòêàçà Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ îò ýòîé îñíîâîïîëàãàþùåé äîãîâîð¸ííîñòè èðàíñêèå ïàðòí¸ðû çàÿâèëè î ïðèîñòàíîâêå ñâîèõ äîáðîâîëüíûõ îáÿçàòåëüñòâ ïî ÑÂÏÄ, – õî÷ó ýòî ïîä÷åðêíóòü, ðå÷ü èä¸ò èìåííî î äîáðîâîëüíûõ îáÿçàòåëüñòâàõ, – õîòÿ è ïîä÷¸ðêèâàþò ãîòîâíîñòü âåðíóòüñÿ ê ïîëíîìó ñîáëþäåíèþ ÿäåðíîé ñäåëêè.

Ðîññèÿ è Ãåðìàíèÿ ðåøèòåëüíî âûñòóïàþò çà äàëüíåéøóþ ðåàëèçàöèþ ñîâìåñòíîãî ïëàíà. Èðàíöû âïðàâå ïîëàãàòüñÿ íà ïîääåðæêó åâðîïåéñêèõ ñòðàí, îáåùàâøèõ ñîçäàòü ñïåöèàëüíûé, íåçàâèñèìûé îò äîëëàðà, ôèíàíñîâûé ìåõàíèçì äëÿ ðàñ÷¸òîâ â òîðãîâëå ñ Èðàíîì. Íóæíî, ÷òîáû èíñòèòóò äëÿ òîðãîâûõ îáìåíîâ INSTEX â êîíå÷íîì èòîãå âñ¸-òàêè íà÷àë ðàáîòàòü.

Ïîäðîáíî ãîâîðèëè ñ ãîñïîæîé Ìåðêåëü îá óðåãóëèðîâàíèè âíóòðèóêðàèíñêîãî êðèçèñà. Ïî îáîþäíîìó ìíåíèþ Ìèíñêèå ñîãëàøåíèÿ îñòàþòñÿ áåçàëüòåðíàòèâíîé îñíîâîé äëÿ íîðìàëèçàöèè ñèòóàöèè íà þãî-âîñòîêå Óêðàèíû. Âàæíî, ÷òîáû êîíêðåòíûå çàäà÷è, ïîñòàâëåííûå â õîäå íàøèõ íåäàâíèõ âñòðå÷ â «íîðìàíäñêîì ôîðìàòå», âîïëîùàëèñü â æèçíü.

Ìû î÷åíü íàäååìñÿ, ÷òî óêðàèíñêàÿ ñòîðîíà íà÷íåò ðåàëèçîâûâàòü è äîãîâîð¸ííîñòè ïî ïîëèòè÷åñêîìó óðåãóëèðîâàíèþ. Ïðîäëåíèå çàêîíà îá îñîáîì ñòàòóñå Äîíáàññà – ýòî õîðîøèé øàã â ïðàâèëüíîì íàïðàâëåíèè, íî çàêîí äîëæåí ñòàòü áåññðî÷íûì, êàê è ïðåäóñìîòðåíî â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ.

Íåîáõîäèìî çàêðåïèòü îñîáûé ñòàòóñ Äîíáàññà â óêðàèíñêîé Êîíñòèòóöèè, ÷òî òîæå îòðàæåíî â Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèÿõ. Ìû ïîíèìàåì âñå ñëîæíîñòè âíóòðèïîëèòè÷åñêîãî ïðîöåññà íà Óêðàèíå, íî åñëè âñå çàèíòåðåñîâàííûå ñòîðîíû õîòÿò äîáèòüñÿ îêîí÷àòåëüíîãî óðåãóëèðîâàíèÿ, íóæíî èäòè ïî ðåàëèçàöèè Ìèíñêèõ ñîãëàøåíèé.

 çàêëþ÷åíèå åù¸ ðàç îòìå÷ó, ÷òî â õîäå ïåðåãîâîðîâ ñ ãîñïîæîé Ôåäåðàëüíûì êàíöëåðîì íàì óäàëîñü îáñòîÿòåëüíî è â êîíñòðóêòèâíîì êëþ÷å îáñóäèòü ìíîãèå âàæíûå âîïðîñû, êîòîðûå êàñàþòñÿ êàê ðîññèéñêî-ãåðìàíñêèõ îòíîøåíèé, òàê è ñòàáèëüíîñòè è áåçîïàñíîñòè â Áëèæíåâîñòî÷íîì ðåãèîíå, äà è â ìèðå â öåëîì.

Õî÷ó èñêðåííå ïîáëàãîäàðèòü Ôåäåðàëüíîãî êàíöëåðà çà ïðîäóêòèâíóþ ñîâìåñòíóþ ðàáîòó ñåãîäíÿ.

Ñïàñèáî çà âíèìàíèå.

À.Ìåðêåëü (êàê ïåðåâåäåíî): ß õîòåëà áû òàêæå ïîáëàãîäàðèòü çà ïðèãëàøåíèå ïðèåõàòü ñþäà, â Ìîñêâó, è âîçìîæíîñòü ïðîâåñòè î÷åíü îáñòîÿòåëüíûå, î÷åíü ïîäðîáíûå áåñåäû êàê ïî äâóñòîðîííåé ïîâåñòêå äíÿ, òàê è ïî ìåæäóíàðîäíûì âîïðîñàì.

Íà ñàìîì äåëå ìû ìîæåì óòâåðæäàòü, ÷òî, íåñìîòðÿ íà íåêîòîðûå ñëîæíîñòè, íàïðèìåð, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ ñàíêöèé â ñâÿçè ñ Óêðàèíîé, ó íàñ î÷åíü èíòåíñèâíûå ýêîíîìè÷åñêèå âçàèìîîòíîøåíèÿ â ñôåðå íàóêè, â ñôåðå âóçîâñêîãî ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâà. Ñåé÷àñ ìåæäó Ðîññèåé è Ãåðìàíèåé î÷åíü èíòåíñèâíûå êîíòàêòû, èíòåíñèâíîå ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâî, è ãðàæäàíå íàøèõ ñòðàí òàêæå î÷åíü òåñíî äðóã ñ äðóãîì îáùàþòñÿ. Ýòî î÷åíü ïðîäóêòèâíî.

Ìû òàêæå ãîâîðèëè î ïðîåêòå «Ñåâåðíûé ïîòîê», êîíå÷íî æå. Ýòîò ïðîåêò ïîñðåäñòâîì íîâîãî åâðîïåéñêîãî çàêîíîäàòåëüñòâà ëåãèòèìèðîâàí. Íàì íåîáõîäèìî äîâåñòè åãî äî êîíöà. È îòðàäíî òî, ÷òî áûëà äîñòèãíóòà î÷åíü õîðîøàÿ äîãîâîð¸ííîñòü íà ñëåäóþùèå ïÿòü ëåò â îáëàñòè òðàíçèòà ãàçà ÷åðåç Óêðàèíó.

Ìû òàêæå îòñëåæèâàëè ñîáûòèÿ âîêðóã îòêðûòèÿ «Òóðåöêîãî ïîòîêà». Ãåðìàíèÿ è äðóãèå åâðîïåéñêèå ñòðàíû âûèãðàþò îò «Ñåâåðíîãî ïîòîêà». «Ñåâåðíûé ïîòîê – 1», êîíå÷íî, ðàáîòàåò. «Ñåâåðíûé ïîòîê – 2» åù¸ íå ãîòîâ. Âñå çàèíòåðåñîâàíû â äèâåðñèôèêàöèè ñâîèõ ãàçîâûõ ïîñòàâîê, è îíè áóäóò ïðîäîëæàòü ðàáîòàòü â ýòîì íàïðàâëåíèè. Îäíàêî ýòî î÷åíü âàæíûé ïðîåêò.

Òàêæå ìû îáñóäèëè âîïðîñ ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ êîíôëèêòîâ.

Âî-ïåðâûõ, õîòåëà áû óïîìÿíóòü Ëèâèþ. ß äóìàþ, ìåæäó òóðåöêèì Ïðåçèäåíòîì Ýðäîãàíîì è ðîññèéñêèì Ïðåçèäåíòîì Âëàäèìèðîì Ïóòèíûì ñîñòîÿëàñü î÷åíü ïðîäóêòèâíàÿ âñòðå÷à â Ñòàìáóëå.  ðàìêàõ ýòîé âñòðå÷è âåä¸òñÿ ðàáîòà ïî ïðåêðàùåíèþ îãíÿ. Ýòî ìîæåò ñòàòü øàãîì â ðàìêàõ áåðëèíñêîãî ïðîöåññà ìåæäó ïÿòüþ ñòðàíàìè, êîòîðûå èìåþò ïðàâî âåòî â Ñîâáåçå ÎÎÍ. Ñ äðóãèìè ñòðàíàìè ðàçðàáîòàí îïðåäåë¸ííûé äîêóìåíò íà âûñîêîì óðîâíå.

Ñåé÷àñ ìû ìîæåì ïðèãëàøàòü ó÷àñòíèêîâ íà êîíôåðåíöèþ â Áåðëèí ïîä ýãèäîé ÎÎÍ. Ãåíåðàëüíûé ñåêðåòàðü ÎÎÍ Ãóòåððåø, ñïåöïîñëàííèê ÎÎÍ Ñàëàìå íåñóò ãëàâíóþ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü çà ýòîò ïðîöåññ.  êîíöå êîíöîâ äîëæíà áûòü ïðåäîñòàâëåíà ëèâèéñêèì ñòîðîíàì âîçìîæíîñòü èìåòü ñóâåðåííóþ ñòðàíó.

Ìû íå ñîáèðàåìñÿ âìåøèâàòüñÿ â ñóâåðåíèòåò, è ïîýòîìó ñåé÷àñ ñòîðîíû êîíôëèêòà â Ëèâèè, ãîñïîäèí Ñàððàäæ è ãîñïîäèí Õàôòàð, òîæå áóäóò âîâëå÷åíû â ðåøåíèå ýòèõ âîïðîñîâ. Ìû íàäååìñÿ, ÷òî óñèëèÿ ðîññèéñêîé ñòîðîíû, óñèëèÿ òóðåöêîé ñòîðîíû óâåí÷àþòñÿ óñïåõîì. È ìû óæå â ñêîðîì âðåìåíè áóäåì ïðèãëàøàòü ó÷àñòíèêîâ íà êîíôåðåíöèþ â Áåðëèíå.

Ìû òàêæå îáñóäèëè Ñèðèþ. ×òî êàñàåòñÿ áåñåäû Ïðåçèäåíòà Ýðäîãàíà è Ïðåçèäåíòà Ïóòèíà, òî íà íåé áûëè äîñòèãíóòû î÷åíü âàæíûå ðåçóëüòàòû. ß î÷åíü ðàäà, ÷òî â ïîñëåäíþþ íî÷ü áûëà äîñòèãíóòà äîãîâîð¸ííîñòü ïî äâóì ãóìàíèòàðíûì ïåðåõîäàì èç Èäëèáà, îíè îòêðûòû, òàê êàê òàì ëþäè î÷åíü íóæäàþòñÿ.

Ïîýòîìó ÿ î÷åíü ðàäà, ÷òî îáñóæäàëàñü âîçìîæíîñòü ðåæèìà ïðåêðàùåíèÿ îãíÿ òàì, ïîòîìó ÷òî äëÿ Ñèðèè íå ñóùåñòâóåò âîåííîãî ðåøåíèÿ, ñóùåñòâóåò òîëüêî ðåøåíèå ïîñðåäñòâîì ïåðåãîâîðîâ, è èìåííî íà ýòî ìû äåëàåì ñòàâêó. Ïîýòîìó, ñ îäíîé ñòîðîíû, ìû âûñòóïàåì çà òî, ÷òîáû ó íàñ áûë åù¸ îäèí ïåðåõîä ïî íàïðàâëåíèþ ñåâåðî-âîñòîêà Ñèðèè äëÿ ïîñòàâîê ãóìàíèòàðíîé ïîìîùè. Çäåñü åñòü ãîòîâíîñòü ê äàëüíåéøèì ïåðåãîâîðàì.

À âî-âòîðûõ, ìû õîòèì ïðîäâèãàòü ïðîöåññ, íà÷àòûé ñïåöïîñëàííèêîì ÎÎÍ Ïåäåðñåíîì. Íàì íåîáõîäèìî íàéòè ïîëèòè÷åñêîå ðåøåíèå, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû áûëè ñîçäàíû óñëîâèÿ äëÿ ìèðíîé æèçíè â Ñèðèè, ÷òîáû ëþäè ìîãëè âîçâðàùàòüñÿ â ñâîè äîìà â Ñèðèþ. Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, èõ î÷åíü ìíîãî, î÷åíü ìíîãî ñèðèéöåâ íà äàííûé ìîìåíò íàõîäèòñÿ â Òóðöèè, è Òóðöèÿ íåñ¸ò íà ñåáå î÷åíü áîëüøóþ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü. Ðåçóëüòàò êîíñòèòóöèîííîãî ïðîöåññà, ÷òîáû åìó îêàçàòü ïîääåðæêó, ìû áóäåì ïðîäîëæàòü ñîòðóäíè÷àòü ñ Òóðöèåé, Ðîññèåé è Ôðàíöèåé.

Ìû îáñóäèëè, êîíå÷íî æå, òàêæå ñèòóàöèþ â Èðàíå. Ìû åäèíû âî ìíåíèè, ÷òî íåîáõîäèìî äåëàòü âñ¸ äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ñîõðàíèòü ÑÂÏÄ. Ãåðìàíèÿ óáåæäåíà â òîì, ÷òî Èðàíó íå ñëåäóåò èìåòü ÿäåðíîå îðóæèå, ïîýòîìó ìû ïðèìåíèì âñå äèïëîìàòè÷åñêèå ñðåäñòâà äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ýòà äîãîâîð¸ííîñòü, êîòîðàÿ, êîíå÷íî, íåñîâåðøåííà, íî ýòî äîãîâîð¸ííîñòü, è îíà âêëþ÷àåò â ñåáÿ îáÿçàòåëüñòâà äëÿ âñåõ ñòîðîí, è ìû õîòèì ýòó äîãîâîð¸ííîñòü ñîõðàíèòü.

 ýòîì êîíòåêñòå õîòåëà áû òàêæå ñêàçàòü, ÷òî 176 ÷åëîâåê ïîãèáëè. Íåâèííûå ëþäè ïîãèáëè ïðè ïàäåíèè ñàìîë¸òà â Èðàíå. Ñåãîäíÿ Èðàí îá ýòîì îáúÿâèë, ÷òî ýòî áûëî áîëüøîé îøèáêîé è âèíîâíûå íàéäåíû, êîòîðûå íåñóò îòâåòñòâåííîñòü. Ñåé÷àñ íåîáõîäèìî íàõîäèòü ðåøåíèÿ ñ òåìè ãîñóäàðñòâàìè, îòêóäà áûëè òå ëþäè, êîòîðûå ïîãèáëè.

È íåîáõîäèìî, êîíå÷íî, îáñóæäàòü ïîñëåäñòâèÿ òàêîé òðàãåäèè, êîòîðóþ íåîáõîäèìî äî êîíöà ðàñêðûòü. Ýòî äåéñòâèòåëüíî î÷åíü äðàìàòè÷åñêîå ñîáûòèå. Ïîýòîìó â îòíîøåíèè Èðàêà ìû òàêæå áóäåì ïðèëàãàòü âñå óñèëèÿ, ÷òîáû áîðîòüñÿ ñ òåððîðèçìîì è ÷òîáû ñíèæàòü íàêàë ñèòóàöèè â ýòîì ðåãèîíå, íàñêîëüêî ýòî âîçìîæíî.

Ìû òàêæå îáñóäèëè «íîðìàíäñêèé ôîðìàò».  Ïàðèæå ó íàñ, êàê ÿ áû ñêàçàëà, êàê ìèíèìóì ÷àñòè÷íî óñïåøíàÿ âñòðå÷à ïðîøëà, íà êîòîðîé ìû íå ñìîãëè ðåøèòü âñå ïðîáëåìû, îäíàêî ê êîíöó ãîäà áûë ïðîâåä¸í îáìåí ïëåííûìè. Ñåé÷àñ ïðèíèìàþòñÿ óñèëèÿ ïî óñòàíîâëåíèþ ðåæèìà ïðåêðàùåíèÿ îãíÿ. Ýòî âñ¸ ïðàâèëüíî. Ñåé÷àñ ìû ïðîäîëæèì ðàáîòó, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû íà ñëåäóþùåì ñàììèòå äîáèòüñÿ äàëüíåéøåãî ïðîãðåññà â ñîîòâåòñòâèè ñ Ìèíñêèìè äîãîâîð¸ííîñòÿìè. Ó íàñ åñòü ýòà îñíîâà, è íàì íóæíî ñ ýòèì ðàáîòàòü. Ó íàñ åñòü îïðåäåë¸ííûå ñëîæíîñòè, ýòî áóäåò äëèòüñÿ, îäíàêî ó íàñ åñòü òâ¸ðäîå íàìåðåíèå.

 îáùåì è öåëîì ñåãîäíÿ ïðîøëà î÷åíü îáñòîÿòåëüíàÿ áåñåäà, âàæíûé îáìåí ìíåíèÿìè. ß íàäåþñü, ÷òî âñòðå÷è ìåæäó Ðîññèåé è Ãåðìàíèåé áóäóò ïðîäîëæàòüñÿ è âìåñòå ñ äðóãèìè ñòðàíàìè, ÷òîáû ìû âíîñèëè âêëàä â òî, ÷òîáû ó äèïëîìàòè÷åñêèõ ðåøåíèé áûë øàíñ, ÷òîáû ìû ïîääåðæèâàëè ðàáîòó ÎÎÍ ïî âñåì ýòèì âîïðîñàì.

Âîïðîñ (êàê ïåðåâåäåíî): Õîòåë áû ïîãîâîðèòü î Ëèâèè. Òóðåöêèé Ïðåçèäåíò íåñêîëüêî äíåé íàçàä ãîâîðèë î òîì, ÷òî â Ëèâèè íàõîäÿòñÿ äâå òûñÿ÷è òàê íàçûâàåìûõ íà¸ìíèêîâ âîåííîé êîìïàíèè Âàãíåðà. Ýòî ÷àñòíàÿ âîåííàÿ ðîññèéñêàÿ êîìïàíèÿ Âàãíåðà.

Âîïðîñ Âàì, Ïðåçèäåíò Ïóòèí. Âû ìîæåòå ïîäòâåðäèòü ýòî êîëè÷åñòâî? Åñëè íå ìîæåòå ïîäòâåðäèòü, ñêîëüêî ðîññèéñêèõ íà¸ìíèêîâ îò êîìïàíèè Âàãíåðà íàõîäèòñÿ â Ëèâèè?

Â.Ïóòèí: Åñëè òàì è åñòü ðîññèéñêèå ãðàæäàíå, îíè íå ïðåäñòàâëÿþò èíòåðåñîâ Ðîññèéñêîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà è äåíåã îò Ðîññèéñêîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà íå ïîëó÷àþò.

Âîîáùå, â çîíå êîíôëèêòà ìíîãî âñÿêèõ íà¸ìíèêîâ, â òîì ÷èñëå, ïî íàøèì äàííûì, çíà÷èòåëüíîå êîëè÷åñòâî íà¸ìíèêîâ ïåðåáðîøåíî èç Èäëèáñêîé çîíû Ñèðèè â çîíó êîíôëèêòà â Ëèâèè. Ýòî î÷åíü îïàñíûé ïðîöåññ.

Ìû ñ ãîñïîäèíîì Ýðäîãàíîì â÷åðà òîæå îá ýòîì ãîâîðèëè. Ìû íàäååìñÿ, ÷òî ïîñëå íàøåé äîãîâîð¸ííîñòè, èñõîäèì èç òîãî, ÷òî îíè áóäóò èñïîëíåíû è êîíôëèêòóþùèìè ñòîðîíàìè â Ñèðèè, ïðåêðàòÿòñÿ áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ. Îäíîâðåìåííî ñ ýòèì ïðåêðàòèòñÿ è ïåðåáðîñêà â Ëèâèþ äîïîëíèòåëüíûõ êîíòèíãåíòîâ íà¸ìíèêîâ, â òîì ÷èñëå èç Ñèðèéñêîé Àðàáñêîé Ðåñïóáëèêè.

Âîïðîñ: Çäðàâñòâóéòå, âîïðîñ îáîèì ëèäåðàì.

Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ïðî «Ñåâåðíûé ïîòîê» íåëüçÿ íå ñïðîñèòü. Ìû â óñëîâèÿõ ñàíêöèé ñàìè ñìîæåì åãî ïîñòðîèòü? Åñëè äà, òî â êàêèå ñðîêè?

È ýòîò æå âîïðîñ ôðàó Ìåðêåëü. Áåðëèí ñîáèðàåòñÿ êàê-òî ïîìîãàòü Ðîññèè ñòðîèòü «Ñåâåðíûé ïîòîê» è, íàïðèìåð, ñòàâèòü âîïðîñ ïåðåä Âàøèíãòîíîì îá îòìåíå ñàíêöèé â îòíîøåíèè ýòîãî ïðîåêòà õîòÿ áû ïîòîìó, ÷òî óðåãóëèðîâàí âîïðîñ î òðàíçèòå ãàçà ÷åðåç Óêðàèíó?

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, ìû, áåçóñëîâíî, ñìîæåì äîñòðîèòü ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíî, áåç ïðèâëå÷åíèÿ èíîñòðàííûõ ïàðòíåðîâ. Âîïðîñ â ñðîêàõ – ýòî åäèíñòâåííûé âîïðîñ, êîòîðûé âñòà¸ò â ýòîé ñâÿçè. Áåçóñëîâíî, îêîí÷àíèå ñòðîèòåëüñòâà áóäåò îòîäâèíóòî íà íåñêîëüêî ìåñÿöåâ. Íàäåþñü, ÷òî äî êîíöà òåêóùåãî ãîäà ëèáî â ïåðâîì êâàðòàëå ñëåäóþùåãî ãîäà ðàáîòà áóäåò çàâåðøåíà, è ãàçîïðîâîä çàðàáîòàåò.

À.Ìåðêåëü: Ïðè âñåõ ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ âîïðîñàõ ýòè ïîëèòè÷åñêèå äèñêóññèè, êîíå÷íî, âåäóòñÿ âåçäå.  ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü ýòî ýêîíîìè÷åñêèé ïðîåêò, î êîòîðîì çäåñü èä¸ò ðå÷ü, è ïîýòîìó ìû ñ÷èòàåì, ýòî ïðàâèëüíûé ïðîåêò. Ó÷àñòâóþùèå ïðåäïðèÿòèÿ íåîäíîêðàòíî âûñòóïàëè çà òî, ÷òîáû ðåàëèçîâàòü ýòîò ïðîåêò.

Äóìàþ, ÷òî ïðîåêò ìîæíî ðåàëèçîâàòü, íåñìîòðÿ íà àìåðèêàíñêèå ñàíêöèè. Ðîññèéñêèé Ïðåçèäåíò ãîâîðèë î òîì, ÷òî áóäåò îïðåäåë¸ííàÿ çàäåðæêà, íî ïðîåêò áóäåò ðåàëèçîâàí. ß çäåñü õî÷ó åù¸ ðàç ïîä÷åðêíóòü: íåñìîòðÿ íà âñå ïîëèòè÷åñêèå ïðîáëåìû, ìû ñ÷èòàåì, ÷òî ýêñòåððèòîðèàëüíûå ñàíêöèè – ýòî íåïðàâèëüíûé ïóòü. Ïîýòîìó ìû è â äàëüíåéøåì áóäåì ïîääåðæèâàòü ýòîò ïðîåêò, êàê ìû ýòî è äåëàëè â ïðîøëîì. Íî, åù¸ ðàç, ïî ñóòè ýòî ýêîíîìè÷åñêèé ïðîåêò.

Âîïðîñ (êàê ïåðåâåäåíî): Âîïðîñ ãîñïîæå êàíöëåðó. Ìû ñëûøàëè, ÷òî ó Âàñ áûëè î÷åíü îñòðûå âîïðîñû, êîòîðûå íàäî îáñóäèòü, íî ñåé÷àñ ìû ñëûøàëè î òîì, ÷òî åñòü åäèíñòâî âî ìíîãèõ ìíåíèÿõ, èíîãäà è âîïðåêè ìíåíèþ àìåðèêàíöåâ. Ìû ìîæåì èñõîäèòü èç òîãî, ÷òî áóäåò áîëüøå ñîòðóäíè÷åñòâà ìåæäó Ðîññèåé è Åâðîïåéñêèì ñîþçîì, à ìîæåò áûòü, è ïðîòèâ Ñîåäèí¸ííûõ Øòàòîâ.

À.Ìåðêåëü: ß òîëüêî ÷òî ãîâîðèëà î ïðèìåðå, ãäå åñòü ðàçëè÷èÿ âî ìíåíèÿõ ñ àìåðèêàíöàìè, õîòÿ îíè íàøè ñîþçíèêè, ñ êîòîðûìè ìû ðàáîòàåì âìåñòå ïî ìíîãèì âîïðîñàì. Íî ñ ãåðìàíñêîé è ñ åâðîïåéñêîé òî÷êè çðåíèÿ ìû â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü ïðåäñòàâëÿåì íàøè èíòåðåñû, Ðîññèÿ ïðåäñòàâëÿåò è îïðåäåëÿåò ñâîè èíòåðåñû, è çäåñü íàäî ñìîòðåòü, ãäå åñòü îáùèå èíòåðåñû â ýòîì ïðîöåññå.

Íåñìîòðÿ íà âñå òðóäíîñòè, ìû íàøëè îáùèå èíòåðåñû â äâóñòîðîííèõ îòíîøåíèÿõ, ýòî êàñàåòñÿ ÑÂÏÄ ñ Èðàíîì. Ó íàñ åñòü îáùåå ìíåíèå, åñòü ðàçíûå òî÷êè çðåíèÿ, íî òàêîé âèçèò, êàê ñåãîäíÿøíèé, ñàìîå ëó÷øåå – ãîâîðèòü äðóã ñ äðóãîì, à íå äðóã î äðóãå, è òîãäà ìîæíî ëó÷øå ïîíÿòü è àðãóìåíòû äðóãîé ñòîðîíû.

Íî îäíî ÿñíî, åñëè ìû ãîâîðèì î Ëèâèè, î Ñèðèè, îá Èðàíå, – âîåííûå ñðåäñòâà îïðåäåë¸ííûé ñðîê, êîíå÷íî, ïîìîãàþò, íî â êîíå÷íîì èòîãå äîñòè÷ü ðàçðåøåíèÿ ñèòóàöèè ìîæíî òîëüêî äèïëîìàòè÷åñêèìè ñðåäñòâàìè.

Ñåãîäíÿ ìû ãîâîðèëè î òîì, êàêèì îáðàçîì ìîæíî íàéòè òàêèå äèïëîìàòè÷åñêèå ðåøåíèÿ. Òàì åñòü òîæå ðàçëè÷èÿ âî ìíåíèÿõ, íî åñòü è ñîâïàäàþùèå òî÷êè çðåíèÿ.

Âîïðîñ: Ó ìåíÿ âîïðîñ ê îáîèì ëèäåðàì. Åñëè ìîæíî, ÿ ïðîäîëæó òåìó Ëèâèè, îíà î÷åíü âàæíàÿ ñåé÷àñ. Ãîñïîæà êàíöëåð óïîìÿíóëà, ÷òî íàñ æä¸ò áîëüøàÿ êîíôåðåíöèÿ â Áåðëèíå ïî Ëèâèè. Êàêèå Âû âèäèòå ïåðåä íåé öåëè, êàêèå çàäà÷è, êàêèõ ðåçóëüòàòîâ Âû îò íå¸ æä¸òå, ìîæåò áûòü, çàäà÷è ìàêñèìóì, êîòîðûå Âû ïåðåä ñîáîé ñòàâèòå?

È âîïðîñ ê ðîññèéñêîìó Ïðåçèäåíòó. Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ñêàæèòå, ïîæàëóéñòà, Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, ñ ó÷¸òîì ðåàêöèè ëèâèéñêèõ ñòîðîí íà ìåìîðàíäóì, êîòîðûé áûë ïîäïèñàí Âàìè, äîãîâîð¸ííîñòè, êîòîðûå áûëè äîñòèãíóòû â õîäå Âàøåãî âèçèòà â Òóðöèþ, åñòü ëè øàíñû, ÷òî âñ¸-òàêè ïåðåìèðèå çàðàáîòàåò è â òîò ñðîê, î êîòîðîì ìû äîãîâîðèëèñü?

Åñëè ìîæíî, âòîðîé, áîëåå øèðîêèé âîïðîñ â öåëîì ïðî Áëèæíèé Âîñòîê.  ïîñëåäíèå äíè ýòî ïîñòîÿííî íàõîäèòñÿ â öåíòðå ìèðîâûõ íîâîñòåé, è äàæå ñ ó÷¸òîì îáîñòðåíèÿ ñèòóàöèè ìåæäó Èðàíîì è ÑØÀ çâó÷àëè î÷åíü ïåññèìèñòè÷íûå îöåíêè, äàæå çâó÷àëè ñëîâà, ÷òî ìèð ñòîèò íà ãðàíè âîéíû. Êàê Âû ñ÷èòàåòå, êàêèå åñòü ïóòè íîðìàëèçàöèè ñèòóàöèè íà Áëèæíåì Âîñòîêå â öåëîì?

Â.Ïóòèí: ×òî êàñàåòñÿ ñèòóàöèè â öåëîì, òî, íàäåþñü, äî êðóïíîìàñøòàáíûõ âîåííûõ êîíôëèêòîâ äåëî íå äîéä¸ò. Òî, ÷òî òàì èä¸ò âîéíà, ìû è òàê âèäèì, òàê íàçûâàåìûå áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ ñ ìàëîé èíòåíñèâíîñòüþ, íî ýòî æå áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ, ëþäåé óáèâàþò. Ýòî ôàêò. Î÷åíü áû õîòåëîñü èçáåæàòü êðóïíîìàñøòàáíûõ áîåâûõ äåéñòâèé.

Åñëè ýòî ïðîèçîéä¸ò, ýòî áûëî áû êàòàñòðîôîé íå òîëüêî äëÿ ðåãèîíà Áëèæíåãî Âîñòîêà, ýòî äëÿ âñåãî ìèðà. Ìû ïîíèìàåì, ê ÷åìó ýòî ïðèâåä¸ò. Ýòî ïðèâåä¸ò ê íîâûì ìàñøòàáíûì èñõîäàì ëþäåé ñ òåððèòîðèé èõ òðàäèöèîííîãî ïðîæèâàíèÿ, ê íîâûì ïîòîêàì áåæåíöåâ, è íå òîëüêî â Åâðîïó, íî è â äðóãèå ðåãèîíû.

Ýòî ïðîñòî è ãóìàíèòàðíàÿ áóäåò êàòàñòðîôà. Ó íèõ æå ðåëèãèîçíàÿ êàòàñòðîôà, ýêîíîìè÷åñêàÿ êàòàñòðîôà, ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî ïðèâåä¸ò ê ðàçðóøåíèþ èëè ê îãðîìíîìó óùåðáó äëÿ ìèðîâîé ýêîíîìèêè, äëÿ ìèðîâîé ýíåðãåòèêè.

Ìû ðàññ÷èòûâàåì, ÷òî íàì ñîâìåñòíûìè, îáùèìè óñèëèÿìè, ìû äëÿ ýòîãî è ñîáèðàåìñÿ, â òîì ÷èñëå ñåãîäíÿ ñ ãîñïîæîé Ôåäåðàëüíûì êàíöëåðîì ñîáðàëèñü â Ìîñêâå, âñòðåòèëèñü, ÷òîáû îáñóäèòü íàøè ñîâìåñòíûå øàãè è ïðåäîòâðàòèòü òàêîå íåáëàãîïðèÿòíîå ðàçâèòèå ñîáûòèé.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ ìåæñèðèéñêîãî êîíôëèêòà è âîçìîæíûõ ïóòåé óðåãóëèðîâàíèÿ, òî ÿ î÷åíü ðàññ÷èòûâàþ, ÷òî ñåãîäíÿ ÷åðåç íåñêîëüêî ÷àñîâ (÷åðåç ïÿòü ÷àñîâ), êàê ìû è ïðèçâàëè ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì Òóðöèè ãîñïîäèíîì Ýðäîãàíîì, ïðîòèâîáîðñòâóþùèå ñòîðîíû â Ëèâèè ïðåêðàòÿò îãîíü, ïðåêðàòÿò áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ. Çàòåì ìû õîòåëè áû ïðîâåñòè ñ íèìè äîïîëíèòåëüíûå êîíñóëüòàöèè.

È, êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë â ñâî¸ì âûñòóïëåíèè, ìû ïîääåðæèâàåì èíèöèàòèâó Ôåäåðàëüíîãî êàíöëåðà î ïðîâåäåíèè ïîä ýãèäîé ÎÎÍ êîíôåðåíöèè â Áåðëèíå. Íåêîòîðûå âåùè íàäî åù¸ äîðàáîòàòü. Íî ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî ýòî áûëî áû ñëåäóþùèì î÷åíü õîðîøèì øàãîì â ïðàâèëüíîì íàïðàâëåíèè ñ öåëüþ ïðåäîòâðàùåíèÿ òåõ íåãàòèâíûõ ÿâëåíèé, î êîòîðûõ ÿ ñêàçàë â íà÷àëå.

È ìû ìîãëè áû ïîëîæèòü íà÷àëî ïîñòåïåííîìó ìèðíîìó óðåãóëèðîâàíèþ êîíôëèêòà â Ñèðèè ïîëèòè÷åñêèìè ñðåäñòâàìè.

À.Ìåðêåëü: ß î÷åíü ðàäà, ÷òî ñåãîäíÿ íàì óäàëîñü è ñ ðîññèéñêîé ñòîðîíû, êîòîðàÿ óæå ïðèñóòñòâîâàëà âî âðåìÿ âñåõ ïîäãîòîâèòåëüíûõ çàñåäàíèé â Ãåðìàíèè, ïîëó÷èòü èíôîðìàöèþ î òîì, ÷òî î÷åíü ñêîðî ìû ìîæåì ñîçâàòü áåðëèíñêóþ êîíôåðåíöèþ.

Ñåé÷àñ ìû ñ äðóãèìè ïîòåíöèàëüíûìè ó÷àñòíèêàìè òîæå áóäåì ãîâîðèòü, è íàäååìñÿ, ÷òî óñèëèÿ ðîññèéñêîé ñòîðîíû, îñîáåííî ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ ïðåêðàùåíèÿ îãíÿ â Ëèâèè, óâåí÷àþòñÿ óñïåõîì.

Ìû äîãîâîðèëèñü î òîì, ÷òîáû ïîääåðæèâàòü òåñíûå êîíòàêòû ïî ýòîìó ïîâîäó è âìåñòå ñ òóðåöêîé ñòîðîíîé, è âíóòðè Åâðîïåéñêîãî ñîþçà. Çäåñü ìèíèñòðû èíîñòðàííûõ äåë åâðîïåéñêèõ ñòðàí òîæå ïîääåðæèâàþò òåñíóþ ñâÿçü, Ìèíèñòð èíîñòðàííûõ äåë Åãèïòà è äðóãèõ ñòðàí çäåñü òîæå ó÷àñòâóþò.

Ìû çíàåì, ÷òî âñ¸ ýòî ïðîèñõîäèò ïîä ýãèäîé ÎÎÍ è ðàáîòû Ãåíåðàëüíîãî ñåêðåòàðÿ è ñïåöïðåäñòàâèòåëÿ Ñàëàìå. Ìû íàìåðåíû ïîääåðæèâàòü èõ óñèëèÿ. Ýòà êîíôåðåíöèÿ ìîæåò áûòü òîëüêî îòïðàâíîé òî÷êîé äëÿ òàêîãî ïðîöåññà, è ñàìîå âàæíîå, ÷òîáû íà ïåðâîì ïëàíå ñòîÿëè ëèâèéñêèå èíòåðåñû. Ðå÷ü èä¸ò î áóäóùåì Ëèâèè. Ïðîñòî íàäî èçáåãàòü òîãî, ÷òîáû ñëèøêîì ìíîãî ñòðàí èçâíå õîòåëè ïîâëèÿòü íà ñèòóàöèþ â Ëèâèè è ÷òîáû ëèâèéñêèå èíòåðåñû áûëè íà çàäíåì ïëàíå.

Àôðèêàíñêèé ñîþç, àôðèêàíñêèå ñòðàíû òîæå èãðàþò âàæíóþ ðîëü. Åñëè ñìîòðåòü íà ñîñåäñòâî Ëèâèè, òî ñåãîäíÿ ïðåæäå âñåãî ñîñåäíèå ñòðàíû ñòðàäàþò îò òåððîðèçìà è îò ýñêàëàöèè â ýòîé îáëàñòè. Çäåñü ìû ìîæåì áîðîòüñÿ ñ ýòèì, è áîðîòüñÿ ñ ýòèì áóäåò ëåã÷å, åñëè ó íàñ áóäóò è ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå ñòðóêòóðû, è ãîñóäàðñòâåííîñòü Ëèâèè. Ýòî íàøà öåëü, íàä êîòîðîé ìû ðàáîòàåì. Î÷åíü íàäåþñü, ÷òî â ñëåäóþùèå äíè, íåäåëè ìû ñìîæåì äîáèòüñÿ ïðîãðåññà â ýòîì íàïðàâëåíèè.
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A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 19 2020, 21:34:07     :

http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/62609
Âñòðå÷à ñ âåòåðàíàìè Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû è ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè ïàòðèîòè÷åñêèõ îáúåäèíåíèé

 õîäå ïîñåùåíèÿ Ãîñóäàðñòâåííîãî ìåìîðèàëüíîãî ìóçåÿ îáîðîíû è áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà ãëàâà ãîñóäàðñòâà âñòðåòèëñÿ ñ âåòåðàíàìè Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû è ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè îáùåñòâåííûõ ïàòðèîòè÷åñêèõ îáúåäèíåíèé.
18 ÿíâàðÿ 2020 ãîäà
16:50
Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðã
Ïåðåä íà÷àëîì âñòðå÷è ñ âåòåðàíàìè Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû è ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè îáùåñòâåííûõ ïàòðèîòè÷åñêèõ îáúåäèíåíèé Âëàäèìèð Ïóòèí îñìîòðåë îáíîâë¸ííóþ ýêñïîçèöèþ Ãîñóäàðñòâåííîãî ìåìîðèàëüíîãî ìóçåÿ îáîðîíû è áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà. Ïîÿñíåíèÿ äà¸ò äèðåêòîð ìóçåÿ Åëåíà Ëåçèê.
Íà âñòðå÷å ñ âåòåðàíàìè Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû è ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè îáùåñòâåííûõ ïàòðèîòè÷åñêèõ îáúåäèíåíèé.
7 èç 7
Íà âñòðå÷å ñ âåòåðàíàìè Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû è ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè îáùåñòâåííûõ ïàòðèîòè÷åñêèõ îáúåäèíåíèé.

Íà÷àëó áåñåäû ïðåäøåñòâîâàëà öåðåìîíèÿ âðó÷åíèÿ þáèëåéíûõ ìåäàëåé «75 ëåò Ïîáåäû â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå 1941–1945 ãîäîâ» ïðèãëàø¸ííûì íà âñòðå÷ó âåòåðàíàì: íàãðàäû èç ðóê Ïðåçèäåíòà ïîëó÷èëè ïåòåðáóðæöû Âàëåíòèíà Àíäðîíîâà, Àíàòîëèé Êëèìîâ, Åêàòåðèíà Òóòóðîâà è Áîðèñ Ôåîôàíîâ.

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Â.Ïóòèí: Äîáðûé äåíü, óâàæàåìûå äðóçüÿ, äîðîãèå âåòåðàíû!

Ìû âñòðå÷àåìñÿ ñ âàìè â çíàìåíàòåëüíûé äåíü: 18 ÿíâàðÿ 1943 ãîäà áîéöû Ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî è Âîëõîâñêîãî ôðîíòîâ ïðîðâàëè áëîêàäó Ëåíèíãðàäà.

Ýòî î÷åíü çíàêîâîå ñîáûòèå òîãî âðåìåíè, è ñåé÷àñ îíî çíàêîâîå äëÿ íàñ, äëÿ âñåõ æèòåëåé íàøåé áîëüøîé ñòðàíû, îñîáåííî, êîíå÷íî, äëÿ ëåíèíãðàäöåâ è ïåòåðáóðæöåâ, îñîáåííî äëÿ âåòåðàíîâ, êîòîðûå ïîíèìàþò, ÷òî äëÿ ãîðîäà è äëÿ ñòðàíû îçíà÷àë ïðîðûâ áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà.

Ýòîãî æäàëà âñÿ ñòðàíà, òåì áîëåå æèòåëè áëîêàäíîãî ãîðîäà, êîòîðûå ïîñòðàäàëè âî âðåìÿ âîéíû òàê, êàê íå ïîñòðàäàë íèêòî, äàæå â ñàìûõ òÿæ¸ëûõ òî÷êàõ ïðîòèâîñòîÿíèÿ. Îñîáåííî ýòî êàñàåòñÿ ãðàæäàíñêîãî íàñåëåíèÿ, âåäü äî âîéíû â Ëåíèíãðàäå æèëî 2,5 ìèëëèîíà ÷åëîâåê. Íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïðåäñòàâëÿþ, ïîñëå âîéíû áûëî 400 òûñÿ÷. Åù¸ ñðàçó ïîñëå âîéíû ãîâîðèëè òîëüêî î ïî÷òè ìèëëèîíå ïîãèáøèõ, à íà ñàìîì äåëå, ÿ äóìàþ, èõ áûëî ãîðàçäî áîëüøå.

Ýòîé ìåäàëè – à ÿ õî÷ó ñåãîäíÿ âðó÷èòü âåòåðàíàì ìåäàëü «75 ëåò Ïîáåäû â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå» – áóäóò óäîñòîåíû âñå ó÷àñòíèêè è âåòåðàíû Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû. Òîðæåñòâåííûå öåðåìîíèè å¸ âðó÷åíèÿ ïðîèçîéäóò âî âñåõ ðåãèîíàõ Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè, â ñòðàíàõ Ñîäðóæåñòâà [Íåçàâèñèìûõ Ãîñóäàðñòâ] è çà ãðàíèöåé â íàøèõ äèïëîìàòè÷åñêèõ ó÷ðåæäåíèÿõ.

Ïðåäñòàâèòåëè ïîêîëåíèÿ ïîáåäèòåëåé è ñåãîäíÿ îñòàþòñÿ â ñòðîþ, ÷òî ìíå îñîáåííî ïðèÿòíî îòìåòèòü, ó÷àñòâóþò â îáùåñòâåííîé æèçíè àêòèâíî è ïîìîãàþò ñîõðàíèòü íàì òî, ÷òî ëåæèò â îñíîâå íàøåãî ñàìîñîçíàíèÿ, òî, ÷òî ëåæèò â îñíîâå, ïî ñóòè, ñóùåñòâîâàíèÿ ñàìîãî ãîñóäàðñòâà, à èìåííî ëþáîâü ê Ðîäèíå, ïðåäàííîñòü Îò÷èçíå, ñòðåìëåíèå ñîçèäàòü, äåëàòü âñ¸ äëÿ å¸ áóäóùåãî.

Åù¸ ðàç ïîçäðàâëÿþ ñ ýòèì ïðàçäíèêîì, ñ Äí¸ì ïðîðûâà áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà, è õî÷ó âàì âñåì ïîæåëàòü âñåãî ñàìîãî äîáðîãî, ïðåæäå âñåãî, êîíå÷íî, çäîðîâüÿ.

(Öåðåìîíèÿ âðó÷åíèÿ þáèëåéíûõ ìåäàëåé «75 ëåò Ïîáåäû â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå 1941–1945 ãîäîâ».)

Å.Òóòóðîâà: Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷!

ß õî÷ó Âàñ ïîçäðàâèòü ñ ýòîé çíàìåíàòåëüíîé äàòîé ïðîðûâà áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà.

Íàøà 86-ÿ ñòðåëêîâàÿ äèâèçèÿ, 330-é ñòðåëêîâûé ïîëê, íà ëåâîì ôëàíãå íàñòóïàëà ïî îñâîáîæäåíèþ ãîðîäà Øëèññåëüáóðãà. Ãîðîä Øëèññåëüáóðã áûë îñâîáîæä¸í 18 ÿíâàðÿ 1943 ãîäà. È ÿ Âàñ õî÷ó ñ ýòîé çíàìåíàòåëüíîé äàòîé ïîçäðàâèòü, ïîñêîëüêó ýòî íàø ðîäíîé ïîëê. Ìû, âåòåðàíû, äî ñèõ ïîð âñòðå÷àåìñÿ, èç 330-ãî ïîëêà íàñ îñòàëîñü âñåãî ÷åòûðå ÷åëîâåêà.

Õî÷ó Âàñ ïîçäðàâèòü îò èìåíè íàøåãî ëåíèíãðàäñêîãî êîìèòåòà âåòåðàíîâ è îäíîïîë÷àí, îò íàøåãî Ñîâåòà àðìèè íàðîäíîãî îïîë÷åíèÿ è îñîáåííî îò 86-é ñòðåëêîâîé äèâèçèè.

Áëàãîäàðèì Âàñ è çà Âàøå îòíîøåíèå ê âåòåðàíàì, è çà òî, ÷òî Âû òàê öåíèòå íàøó àðìèþ, âîçðîæäàåòå å¸ èç òåõ 90-õ ãîäîâ, êîòîðûå áûëè ïåðåæèòû ýòîé àðìèåé. Áåñïîðÿäîê òàêîé áûë. Âû âîññòàíîâèëè àðìèþ, è íîâîå âîîðóæåíèå, è ìû áëàãîäàðíû Âàì çà ýòî.

Áîëüøîå Âàì ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñïàñèáî.

ß åù¸ ðàç âñåõ âàñ õî÷ó ïîïðèâåòñòâîâàòü – è âåòåðàíîâ, è ìîëîäûå ïîêîëåíèÿ – â îñíîâíîì çäåñü òå, êòî çàíèìàåòñÿ ñîõðàíåíèåì ïàìÿòè î Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå, î íàøèõ ãåðîÿõ, êîòîðûå äîáûëè Ïîáåäó.

Õî÷ó âàñ âñåõ ïîáëàãîäàðèòü. Âåòåðàíîâ – çà òî, ÷òî âû äî ñèõ ïîð â ñòðîþ è ñàìèì ôàêòîì âàøåãî ó÷àñòèÿ â ðàçëè÷íûõ ìåðîïðèÿòèÿõ ïîääåðæèâàåòå â ìîëî䏿è òî, ÷òî ÿ ãîâîðèë óæå â áîëåå îôèöèàëüíîé îáñòàíîâêå, – ëþáîâü ê Ðîäèíå, ê Ðîññèè. ×óâñòâî ãîðäîñòè çà ñòðàíó âîçíèêàåò, êîãäà, ÷åñòíî, ìû ñìîòðèì íà âàñ è âñïîìèíàåì òî, ÷òî áûëî âàìè ñäåëàíî âî èìÿ íàøåãî íàðîäà è âî èìÿ íàøåé Ðîäèíû.

È õî÷ó ïîáëàãîäàðèòü âñåõ, êòî çàíèìàåòñÿ ñîõðàíåíèåì ïàìÿòè î Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå è î òåõ ãåðîÿõ, êîòîðûå äîáûëè íàì ýòó Ïîáåäó. Ýòî áîëüøàÿ ïîèñêîâàÿ, áîëüøàÿ ðàáîòà, ñâÿçàííàÿ íå òîëüêî ñ ñîõðàíåíèåì ïàìÿòè, íî è ñ îòêðûòèåì íîâûõ èì¸í íàøèõ ãåðîåâ.

Ñåé÷àñ òîëüêî áûë íà äâóõ âûñòàâêàõ – î÷åíü èíòåðåñíûå, óíèêàëüíûå èñòîðèè óñëûøàë. Ýòî âïå÷àòëÿåò, è ýòî äîðîãîãî ñòîèò.

Ðàáîòà ýòà íåïðîñòàÿ, îíà êðîïîòëèâàÿ, à ïîä÷àñ òÿæ¸ëàÿ, èíîãäà äàæå îïàñíàÿ, èìåÿ â âèäó, ÷òî ïðèõîäèòñÿ ðàáîòàòü íà òåððèòîðèÿõ, ãäå ïðîõîäèëè òÿæ¸ëûå áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ. Òàì äî ñèõ ïîð ìîãóò áûòü è ìèíû, è ñíàðÿäû.  îáùåì, ýòî ðàáîòà, òðåáóþùàÿ áîëüøîé îòâåòñòâåííîñòè è äèñöèïëèíû.

ß õî÷ó, âûðàæàÿ ñëîâà áëàãîäàðíîñòè, âûðàçèòü íàäåæäó íà òî, ÷òî ýòó ðàáîòó âû äàëüøå áóäåòå ïðîäîëæàòü, à ìû âñÿ÷åñêè ñ îôèöèàëüíîãî óðîâíÿ áóäåì âàñ ïîääåðæèâàòü.

Ñïàñèáî áîëüøîå.

Ïîæàëóéñòà, ïðîøó Âàñ.

À.Êðàñíîáàåâ: Ðåãèîíàëüíûé øòàá «Áåññìåðòíîãî ïîëêà», Àíäðåé Êðàñíîáàåâ.

Çäðàâñòâóéòå, Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷!

 ïîñëåäíåì Ïîñëàíèè Ôåäåðàëüíîìó Ñîáðàíèþ Âû îòäåëüíî óïîìÿíóëè òåìó Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû. È ìû ïîíèìàåì, ÷òî ýòî íå òîëüêî ñâÿçàíî ñ þáèëåéíûì ãîäîì – äëÿ Âàñ ýòî ãëóáîêî ëè÷íàÿ èñòîðèÿ, Âåëèêàÿ Îòå÷åñòâåííàÿ: Âû íå òîëüêî ñûí ôðîíòîâèêà, íî è ãëàâà íàøåãî ãîñóäàðñòâà, êîòîðîå ðåøàþùóþ ðîëü âî Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé ñûãðàëî. È ìû çíàåì, êàê Âû ïîìîãàåòå ïîèñêîâèêàì, âîëîíò¸ðàì.

Îñîáåííî õî÷åòñÿ ïîáëàãîäàðèòü Âàñ çà ïîìîùü íàøåìó «Íåâñêîìó áàòàëèñòó», êîòîðûé óíèêàëüíûé ìóçåé â «Ñåâêàáåëü [Ïîðòó]» ñäåëàë. Ìîãó ñêàçàòü, ÷òî äåòè, êîòîðûå âûõîäÿò èç ýòîãî ìóçåÿ, óæå ñîâñåì ïî-äðóãîìó ñìîòðÿò, ïîòîìó ÷òî ìîëîäîìó ïîêîëåíèþ, êîòîðîå íå âèäåëî âåòåðàíîâ, î÷åíü òðóäíî ïîðîé ïîíÿòü âñþ ãëóáèíó ñîáûòèé, êîòîðûå áûëè.

Íà ïîñëåäíåì çàñåäàíèè îðãêîìèòåòà «Ïîáåäà» Âû äàâàëè ïîðó÷åíèå î ïîìîùè ôðîíòîâèêàì è òðóæåíèêàì òûëà. Êàêèå ðåøåíèÿ óæå ïðèíÿòû íà ýòó òåìó?

Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: ß íàäåþñü, ÷òî â õîäå ïîäãîòîâêè ê þáèëåéíûì ñîáûòèÿì ïî âñåé ñòðàíå – è íà âûñîêîì ôåäåðàëüíîì óðîâíå, è íà ðåãèîíàëüíîì – áóäåò ïðåäïðèíÿòà öåëàÿ ñåðèÿ ìåðîïðèÿòèé, ñâÿçàííûõ ñ ïîääåðæêîé âåòåðàíîâ.

Î÷åíü ðàññ÷èòûâàþ íà ðàáîòó âîëîíò¸ðîâ: ó íàñ ìîëîäûå, èíòåðåñíûå, î÷åíü òàëàíòëèâûå ðåáÿòà, êîòîðûå èçûñêèâàþò ñàìûå ðàçëè÷íûå ôîðìû ïîääåðæêè âåòåðàíîâ – íà ãîñóäàðñòâåííîì óðîâíå, èìåþ â âèäó ðåãèîíàëüíûé, è íà ôåäåðàëüíîì.

Íà ôåäåðàëüíîì ìû óæå äåëàëè ýòî íåîäíîêðàòíî: ìû, åñëè ñêàçàòü ïî-ïðîñòîìó, ïîääåðæèâàëè ìàòåðèàëüíî íàøèõ âåòåðàíîâ è ó÷àñòíèêîâ âîéíû, ïðèðàâíåííûõ ê íèì ëèö è òðóæåíèêîâ òûëà. Îáû÷íî ýòî áûëà åäèíîâðåìåííàÿ ïîìîùü â ðàçìåðå 10 òûñÿ÷ ðóáëåé äëÿ âåòåðàíîâ è 5 òûñÿ÷ ðóáëåé äëÿ òðóæåíèêîâ òûëà.

Çíàåòå, ÿ ñåãîäíÿ äóìàë îá ýòîì, ïîêà ñþäà åõàë, ìíå ïðèøëà â ãîëîâó ïðîñòàÿ, íåõèòðàÿ ìûñëü.  ÷¸ì îíà çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ? Ó íàñ 75 ëåò Ïîáåäû, ïîýòîìó ìû – ÿ äóìàþ, ýòî áóäåò îïðàâäàííî è ëþäè ýòî ïîéìóò, – îêàæåì ïîìîùü, ñâÿçàííóþ ñ ýòîé öèôðîé: ïî 75 òûñÿ÷ ðóáëåé âûäåëèì âåòåðàíàì Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû è âñåì ïðèðàâíåííûì ê íèì êàòåãîðèÿì è ïî 50 òûñÿ÷ – òðóæåíèêàì òûëà.

À.Êðàñíîáàåâ: Ñïàñèáî.

À.Ñîëîâü¸â: Ñîëîâü¸â Àíòîí Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ÷ëåí ðåãèîíàëüíîãî øòàáà Îáùåðîññèéñêîãî íàðîäíîãî ôðîíòà.

Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, êàê Âû çíàåòå, ó íàñ âåä¸òñÿ àêòèâíàÿ ðàáîòà ïî ïðîåêòó «Ïðÿìàÿ ëèíèÿ. Ïðîäîëæåíèå». Ìû ñîáèðàåìñÿ â êàæäîì ðåãèîíå êàæäóþ íåäåëþ, ñîáèðàþòñÿ øòàáû ïî ðàññìîòðåíèþ îáðàùåíèé íà «Ïðÿìóþ ëèíèþ». È êîíå÷íî æå, ïîïàäàþòñÿ îáðàùåíèÿ âåòåðàíîâ, ÷òî àêòóàëüíî äëÿ Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãà, â òîì ÷èñëå è áëîêàäíèêîâ.

Îáðàùåíèÿ àáñîëþòíî ðàçíûå. Åñòü è âîññòàíîâëåíèå ñòàòóñà áëîêàäíèêà, åñòü è âîññòàíîâëåíèå óòðà÷åííûõ íàãðàä âî âðåìÿ âîéíû. Åñòü è òàêèå îáðàùåíèÿ: íàïðèìåð, â Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãå âåòåðàí, çàñëóæåííûé ìàñòåð ñïîðòà ÑÑÑÐ, îòñòîÿë ñïîðòèâíûé êîìïëåêñ. Ñïàñèáî Àëåêñàíäðó Äìèòðèåâè÷ó Áåãëîâó – áóêâàëüíî 30 äåêàáðÿ ñîñòîÿëàñü ïåðåäà÷à êëþ÷åé îò ñîáñòâåííèêà ñîáñòâåííèêó.

Ó÷èòûâàÿ âñ¸ ñêàçàííîå, ÎÍÔ ðåøèë çàïóñòèòü êíîïêó â ïðèëîæåíèè ÎÍÔ – «Ïîìîùü âåòåðàíàì Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû».

Â.Ïóòèí: À ÷òî ýòî çíà÷èò – çàïóñòèòü êíîïêó? Êàê ýòî ðàáîòàåò?

À.Ñîëîâü¸â: Ýòî ìîáèëüíîå ïðèëîæåíèå è ñïåöèàëüíàÿ êíîïêà. Ìû õîòèì óñòàíîâèòü ýòî äëÿ òåõ, êòî ðÿäîì ñ âåòåðàíàìè íàõîäèòñÿ, òî åñòü äëÿ äåòåé âåòåðàíîâ, ñîöðàáîòíèêîâ, ñîñåäåé, òåõ, êòî ìîæåò çíàòü î òîì, ÷òî âåòåðàíàì íåîáõîäèìà êàêàÿ-òî ïîìîùü.

Î÷åíü ëåãêî óñòàíàâëèâàåòñÿ ìîáèëüíîå ïðèëîæåíèå, îòêðûâàåòñÿ, è åñëè âåòåðàíó, íàïðèìåð, íóæíà êàêàÿ-òî ïîìîùü – ñõîäèòü çà ïðîäóêòàìè, äîâåñòè äî ïîëèêëèíèêè èëè ïîìî÷ü íà ïðèóñàäåáíîì ó÷àñòêå, – òî ìîæíî íàæàòü, è, ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, ýòî îáðàùåíèå ïîñòóïàåò ê íàì, è ìû âìåñòå ñ âîëîíò¸ðàìè íà÷èíàåì îáðàáàòûâàòü ýòîò âîïðîñ.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñóïåð! Ñïàñèáî.

À.Ñîëîâü¸â: Ïîýòîìó, Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ìû ïåðâîå, ÷òî ïðîñèì, – êîíå÷íî, íàñ ïîääåðæàòü, ïîòîìó ÷òî ñåé÷àñ ïðåäñòîèò îãðîìíàÿ ðàáîòà ñ ðåãèîíàìè, îãðîìíàÿ ðàáîòà ñ ñîöèàëüíûìè ñëóæáàìè, ÷òîáû øëè íàâñòðå÷ó è ïîìîãàëè.

Êðîìå òîãî, ó íàñ äëÿ òåõ, êòî íå äðóæèò ñ ìîáèëüíûìè ïðèëîæåíèÿìè, â Ìîñêîâñêîé îáëàñòè óæå îòêðûòî «îêíî» â ÌÔÖ, êóäà ÷åëîâåê, êîòîðûé òÿæåëî îáùàåòñÿ ñ ìîáèëüíûìè ïðèëîæåíèÿìè, ìîæåò ïîäîéòè, è ëèáî åìó òàì óæå îêàçûâàþò ïîääåðæêó, ëèáî çàãðóçÿò å¸ ñðàçó â ñèñòåìó.

È êîíå÷íî æå, êðîìå òîãî, ÿ ñàì, êàê âíóê áëîêàäíèêîâ – ó ìåíÿ äåäóøêà ðàáîòàë â Ñìåðøå íà «Äîðîãå æèçíè», à áàáóøêà äåæóðèëà íà êðûøàõ, – ïðîñòî ïî-÷åëîâå÷åñêè õî÷ó ïîìî÷ü òåì ëþäÿì, êîòîðûå äåéñòâèòåëüíî ýòî çàñëóæèëè.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ïðàâèëüíî. Îòëè÷íàÿ èäåÿ ñ èñïîëüçîâàíèåì ñîâðåìåííûõ òåõíîëîãèé. Ìîëîäûå ëþäè, òàêèå êàê Âû, óìåþò ýòî äåëàòü, äåëàþò ýòî õîðîøî. È åñëè ýòî ïîéä¸ò íà ïîëüçó ñòàðøåìó ïîêîëåíèþ, ýòî áóäåò ïðîñòî ïðåêðàñíî.

Îáåùàþ Âàì, ÷òî îáÿçàòåëüíî ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèé ñèãíàë… Ñîáñòâåííî ãîâîðÿ, âîò ýòó íàøó âñòðå÷ó ñåãîäíÿ ñðåäñòâà ìàññîâîé èíôîðìàöèè ðàñïðîñòðàíÿò – îáðàùàþñü ê ðóêîâîäèòåëÿì ðåãèîíîâ Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè, ê ñâîèì êîëëåãàì, ñ òåì ÷òîáû îíè ñàìûì àêòèâíûì îáðàçîì ýòî ïîääåðæàëè.

À.Ñîëîâü¸â: Ñïàñèáî áîëüøîå.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âàì ñïàñèáî.

Ïîæàëóéñòà.

Ñ.Áàëàíäþê: Ñåðãåé Áàëàíäþê, ÝËÀÐ.

Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷!

Íàøà êîìàíäà óæå áîëüøå 10 ëåò âûïîëíÿåò Âàøè ðåøåíèÿ: ïîä ðóêîâîäñòâîì Ìèíèñòåðñòâà îáîðîíû ðåàëèçóåì ñàéòû â èíòåðíåòå – ÎÁÄ «Ìåìîðèàë», «Ïàìÿòü íàðîäà», «Ïîäâèã íàðîäà», – ãäå óâåêîâå÷åíà èñòîðèÿ Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé, ãäå óâåêîâå÷åíû âñå ãåðîè, âñå ïîãèáøèå, ïðîïàâøèå áåç âåñòè. Âñ¸ âðåìÿ íàõîäèì íîâóþ èíôîðìàöèþ è ïðîäîëæàåì ýòèì çàíèìàòüñÿ. Ê 75-ëåòèþ Ïîáåäû ìû ãîòîâèì íîâûå ìàññèâû, íîâûå äîêóìåíòû, êîòîðûå ïîçâîëÿò ýòó äàòó åù¸ áîëåå êðàñî÷íî ïîêàçàòü äëÿ ìîëîäîãî ïîêîëåíèÿ.

Î÷åíü âîñòðåáîâàííûå ðåñóðñû: îêîëî 20 ìèëëèîíîâ óíèêàëüíûõ ïîëüçîâàòåëåé â ãîä. Íà îäèí Äåíü Ïîáåäû áîëåå ìèëëèîíà óíèêàëüíûõ ïîëüçîâàòåëåé ïðèõîäÿò ïîñìîòðåòü è íàõîäÿòñÿ íà ñàéòå áîëüøå 10 ìèíóò, òî åñòü îíè ðåàëüíî òàì ðàáîòàþò.

Ïîñëåäíèå äâà ãîäà ìû çàíèìàåìñÿ òåìîé áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà. Ñîáðàëè èíôîðìàöèþ, âñåâîçìîæíûå èñòî÷íèêè, è óæå ýòî êàñàåòñÿ íå âîåííûõ, à êàñàåòñÿ â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, êîíå÷íî, ìèðíîãî íàñåëåíèÿ. Âñ¸, ÷òî ìîãëè íàéòè è îöèôðîâàòü, ñîçäàòü êàêèå-òî ðåñóðñû – â âîåííûõ, öåíòðàëüíûõ àðõèâàõ ìû ýòî ñäåëàëè. Ñåé÷àñ ïåðåõîäèì íà âòîðîé óðîâåíü – ýòî ðåãèîíàëüíûå àðõèâû, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü àðõèâû Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãà è ðåãèîíîâ. È çäåñü ðàáîòà áîëüøàÿ: ñ îäíîé ñòîðîíû, ïîíÿòíàÿ, íî áîëüøàÿ, íå î÷åíü ïðîñòàÿ.

Ìû ýòèì ïðîåêòîì çàíèìàåìñÿ ñîâìåñòíî ñ «Áåññìåðòíûì ïîëêîì» â êà÷åñòâå êîîðäèíèðóþùåãî çâåíà, è ñåé÷àñ ñòîëêíóëèñü ñ ðÿäîì àäìèíèñòðàòèâíûõ ñëîæíîñòåé ñ àðõèâàìè ÇÀÃÑîâ, íàïðèìåð, ñ àðõèâàìè ðèòóàëüíûõ óñëóã, ãäå êëàäáèùåíñêàÿ äîêóìåíòàöèÿ íàõîäèòñÿ, ãäå áû ìû ìîãëè ðåàëüíî, ïóñòü íå âñåõ, õîòÿ áû êàêîå-òî êîëè÷åñòâî ôàìèëèé óñòàíîâèòü, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû ñîçäàòü âîò òîò ïàìÿòíèê, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü äëÿ ìîëî䏿è, â èíòåðíåòå ñ óïîìèíàíèåì è óñòàíîâëåíèåì ñóäüáû âñåõ ëþäåé, âñåõ ãåðîåâ áëîêàäíîãî ãîðîäà, ÷òîáû îíè áûëè íàäîëãî, íàâñåãäà óâåêîâå÷åíû â íàøåé èñòîðèè.

Ïðîñèì îêàçàòü òàêóþ ïîìîùü, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü àäìèíèñòðàòèâíóþ, ÷òîáû ìû ìîãëè ðåàëèçîâûâàòü ýòîò ïðîåêò, ïîòîìó ÷òî îí êàñàåòñÿ íå òîëüêî Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãà – è ðåãèîíàëüíûõ àðõèâîâ, è òàê äàëåå, – è, ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, ýòó èíôîðìàöèþ ìû ìîãëè áû ñîáðàòü.

Ñàéò òàêîé ìû óæå ñäåëàëè, ñäåëàëè ïåðâóþ âåðñèþ ïðîåêòà. Îïèñàíèå ïðîåêòà è êíèãó î í¸ì ÿ ïåðåäàë ÷åðåç ïðîòîêîë, Âû ñìîæåòå ïîñìîòðåòü è îçíàêîìèòüñÿ. È ìû, ÿ äóìàþ, ê þáèëåþ Ïîáåäû ñìîãëè áû ðåàëèçîâàòü ïåðâûé ýòàï óæå ýòîãî ïðîåêòà.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû çíàåòå, òî, ÷åì âû ñåé÷àñ çàíÿëèñü, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, ÿâëÿåòñÿ ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíûì. Ïîòîìó ÷òî ìû âñåãäà âåäü è ïðåæäå âñåãî – è ýòî îïðàâäàííî, êîíå÷íî, – âñåãäà ãîâîðèì î ïîòåðÿõ, â òîì ÷èñëå íàøèõ ïîòåðÿõ, ñîâåòñêîãî íàðîäà, â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå. È âñåãäà äåëàåì óïîð íà òåõ, êòî ïîãèáàë, çàùèùàÿ ñâîþ Ðîäèíó ñ îðóæèåì â ðóêàõ, è ýòî îáîñíîâàííî, íî ïî÷òè íèêîãäà èëè î÷åíü ðåäêî îáðàùàåìñÿ ê ãðàæäàíñêèì æåðòâàì. À âîò ñåé÷àñ, íàõîäÿñü â Ïåòåðáóðãå–Ëåíèíãðàäå, ìû ïîíèìàåì, íàñêîëüêî ýòî âàæíî. Ìû âñïîìèíàåì ñðàçó ýòè 125 ãðàììîâ õëåáà, êîòîðûå ïðèõîäèëèñü íà ãðàæäàíñêèõ ëèö. Ìû âñïîìèíàåì î òîì, ÷òî â ãîä â Ëåíèíãðàäå â ýòî âðåìÿ, âî âðåìÿ âîéíû, â ñòî ðàç êàæäûé äåíü óìèðàëî ëþäåé áîëüøå, ÷åì â ìèðíîå âðåìÿ.  ñòî ðàç!

Ìû äîëæíû âñïîìíèòü è î òîì ãåðîèçìå, êîòîðûé áûë ïðèñóù æèòåëÿì áëîêàäíîãî Ëåíèíãðàäà. Áëîêàäíûé Ëåíèíãðàä, 125 ãðàììîâ õëåáà. ß ñàì äëÿ ñåáÿ ñ óäèâëåíèåì îáíàðóæèë: çà âðåìÿ áëîêàäû æèòåëè ãîðîäà ñäàëè 144 òîííû êðîâè. ×òîáû âûâåçòè ýòî â ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåé óïàêîâêå íà ôðîíò – äëÿ ôðîíòà ñäàâàëè êðîâü, – ïîòðåáîâàëîñü 150 æåëåçíîäîðîæíûõ âàãîíîâ. Âû ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå, ýòî ïðîñòî íåâåðîÿòíûé ïîäâèã æèòåëåé ãîðîäà, ãðàæäàíñêèõ ëèö. È ïðè ýòîì ñàìè óìèðàëè îò ãîðîäà.

Ýòî ïðîñòî íåâåðîÿòíî. Îá ýòîì íåâîçìîæíî çàáûòü, è ìû äîëæíû ñîõðàíèòü ýòó ïàìÿòü íàâñåãäà, êàê Âû ñêàçàëè. Òàê ÷òî âñ¸, ÷òî îò íàñ çàâèñèò, áóäåì äåëàòü äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû âàì ïîìîãàòü.

Â.Âîëîáóåâ: Ïðåäñåäàòåëü Ñîâåòà âåòåðàíîâ Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãà Âîëîáóåâ Âàñèëèé Òèõîíîâè÷.

Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷! Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè!

Ïîçâîëüòå ïîçäðàâèòü Âàñ ñ Íîâûì, 2020 ãîäîì è âñåõ çäåñü ïðèñóòñòâóþùèõ, ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî ãîä 75-ëåòèÿ íàøåé Âåëèêîé Ïîáåäû, ýòî Ãîä ïàìÿòè è ñëàâû.

È â ýòîì ïëàíå ÿ õîòåë áû ñêàçàòü è ïîääåðæàòü ìîåãî ñîñåäà Ñåðãåÿ [Áàëàíäþêà], ÷òî ìû áóäåì âìåñòå ñ ïîèñêîâèêàìè, âìåñòå ñî øêîëüíèêàìè àêòèâíî ðàáîòàòü íàä òåì, ÷òîáû ñîõðàíèòü ýòó èñòîðè÷åñêóþ ïàìÿòü, ïàìÿòü êàæäîãî ïîêîëåíèÿ, ÷òîáû îíà îñòàâàëàñü íà âåêà.

Ìû ñ ïîìîùüþ ãðàíòà Ïðåçèäåíòà ïðîâåëè âèäåîëåòîïèñü «Ýïîõà ãëàçàìè ñîâðåìåííèêîâ», ãäå çàïèñàíî íà ïðîòÿæåíèè äâóõ-÷åòûð¸õ ÷àñîâ – Àíàòîëèé Äìèòðèåâè÷ [Êëèìîâ] ó÷àñòâîâàë â ýòîì ïðîåêòå è äðóãèå, – è ñîçäàëè ýòîò àðõèâ. Áóäåì ïðîäîëæàòü ýòó ðàáîòó.

Î÷åíü âàæíà ðàáîòà, êîòîðàÿ ïðîâîäèòñÿ â Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãå ñî øêîëüíèêàìè.  êàæäîé øêîëå êàæäûé ó÷åíèê ñîçäà¸ò êíèãó ðîäîñëîâèÿ ñâîåé ñåìüè. È âîò îòòóäà óæå ìîæíî ÷åðïàòü [èíôîðìàöèþ] î êàæäîì ó÷àñòíèêå Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû, î êàæäîì, êòî áûë òðóæåíèêîì òûëà è òàê äàëåå.

ß äóìàþ, ýòà ðàáîòà áóäåò ó íàñ ïðîäîëæàòüñÿ àêòèâíî, îñîáåííî â ñâÿçè ñ òåì, ÷òî ñàìîå âàæíîå ñåãîäíÿ äëÿ âåòåðàíîâ è äëÿ òåõ, êòî äîáûë íàì Ïîáåäó, – ýòî ïàìÿòü, ïàìÿòü ïîêîëåíèé. È â ýòîé ïàìÿòè, â ýòîé ðàáîòå ïî ñîõðàíåíèþ ïàìÿòè, áóäåì ãîâîðèòü òàê, âåòåðàíû – ýòî äóõîâíî-íðàâñòâåííûé ñòåðæåíü íàøåãî îáùåñòâà, ýòî ðåàëüíûå íîñèòåëè ýòîé èñòîðè÷åñêîé ïàìÿòè, òðóäîâûõ è áîåâûõ òðàäèöèé äëÿ ïîêîëåíèé, è ìû ýòó ïàìÿòü áóäåì âíåäðÿòü.

Âû ïðàâèëüíî â ïîñëåäíåå âðåìÿ äàëè æ¸ñòêèé è äîêóìåíòàëüíûé îòïîð òåì, êòî ïûòàåòñÿ èñêàçèòü èñòîðèþ Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû, ïðèíèçèòü ðîëü íàøåé ñòðàíû â Ïîáåäå. Ìû òðè ÷åòâåðòè óíè÷òîæèëè ëè÷íîãî ñîñòàâà è òåõíèêè íà íàøåì ôðîíòå. Ñïàñèáî Âàì áîëüøîå çà ýòî âûñòóïëåíèå. Ìû òåïåðü áóäåì åù¸ áîëåå àêòèâíî ðàáîòàòü ïî áîðüáå ñ ôàëüñèôèêàòîðàìè èñòîðèè.

Â.Ïóòèí: Èçâèíèòå, ÷òî ÿ Âàñ ïåðåáèâàþ, ïðîñòî íå ìîãó íå äîáàâèòü. ß óæå ãîâîðèë îá ýòîì, â Ïîñëàíèè òîëüêî ÷òî ñêàçàë: ìû îáÿçàòåëüíî ñîçäàäèì öåíòð àðõèâíûõ äîêóìåíòîâ, êèíî- è ôîòîìàòåðèàëîâ, è ìû çàòêí¸ì ðîò òåì, êòî ïûòàåòñÿ ïåðåèíà÷èòü èñòîðèþ, ïîäàòü å¸ â ëîæíîì ñâåòå è ïðèíèçèòü ðîëü íàøèõ îòöîâ, íàøèõ äåäîâ, íàøèõ ãåðîåâ, êîòîðûå ïîãèáàëè, çàùèùàÿ ñâîþ Ðîäèíó è çàùèùàÿ âåñü ìèð ïðàêòè÷åñêè îò «êîðè÷íåâîé ÷óìû» – îò íàöèçìà.

ß äóìàþ, ÷òî ýòîò ñàéò è âîîáùå ýòîò öåíòð áóäåò îòêðûòûì è äëÿ íàøèõ ãðàæäàí, è äëÿ âñåãî ìèðà. È ìû íå ïîçâîëèì ýòèì ïîïûòêàì ïðåäñòàâèòü èñòîðèþ â ñîâåðøåííî äóðíîì ñâåòå. Õî÷ó åù¸ ðàç ïîä÷åðêíóòü, ìû ýòîò ïîãàíûé ðîò çàòêí¸ì äîêóìåíòàìè íàâñåãäà, ÷òîáû íåïîâàäíî áûëî.

Âåäü Âû ñåé÷àñ ñêàçàëè î òîì, ñêîëüêî íà Âîñòî÷íîì ôðîíòå, íà ñîâåòñêî-ãåðìàíñêîì ôðîíòå, áûëî óíè÷òîæåíî òåõíèêè è æèâîé ñèëû ïðîòèâíèêà. À ïîòåðè êàêèå ó íàñ?

Âû çíàåòå, ÿ ñåé÷àñ ïîåäó â Èçðàèëü, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû ïîó÷àñòâîâàòü â îòêðûòèè ïàìÿòíèêà æåðòâàì áëîêàäíîãî Ëåíèíãðàäà. È ÿ î÷åíü áëàãîäàðåí, ìû âñå äîëæíû áûòü áëàãîäàðíû ðóêîâîäñòâó Èçðàèëÿ è òåì ëþäÿì, êîòîðûå áûëè èíèöèàòîðàìè ýòîãî ñîáûòèÿ. Ýòî õîðîøåå ñîáûòèå, êîòîðîå íàïîìèíàåò î æåðòâàõ Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíû, íàïîìèíàåò î òîì, êòî âí¸ñ ðåøàþùèé âêëàä â áîðüáó ñ íàöèçìîì.

Çíàåòå, ÿ èíîãäà äàæå äóìàþ è ñåé÷àñ íà÷àë ïîíèìàòü ýòî, ÷òî âîîáùå åâðåéñêèå îáùåñòâåííûå îðãàíèçàöèè è ðóêîâîäñòâî Èçðàèëÿ î÷åíü ïðàâèëüíî äåëàþò, ÷òî íå äàþò ìèðó çàáûòü î æåðòâàõ Õîëîêîñòà. Êñòàòè ãîâîðÿ, ñðåäè æåðòâ Õîëîêîñòà çíà÷èòåëüíîå, î÷åíü áîëüøîå ÷èñëî åâðååâ – ãðàæäàí Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà.

Íî è ìû ñ âàìè òîæå íå äîëæíû äàâàòü íèêîìó çàáûòü î æåðòâàõ äðóãèõ íàðîäîâ ÑÑÑÐ, ðóññêîãî íàðîäà. Âåäü èç âñåõ ïîòåðü Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà âðåì¸í Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíû, Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû, ïî÷òè 70 ïðîöåíòîâ ïîòåðü ïðèøëîñü íà ÐÑÔÑÐ, òî åñòü íà ñåãîäíÿøíþþ Ðîññèþ.

Òàêæå íå äîëæíû äàòü çàáûòü, ïî ñóòè, î ãåíîöèäå äðóãèõ íàðîäîâ Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè è áûâøåãî Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà. ×ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíàÿ ìèññèÿ.

Åù¸ ðàç õî÷ó ýòî ïîâòîðèòü, ïóñêàé ýòî ïðîçâó÷èò ãðóáîâàòî, íî ýòî òàê è åñòü: ýòîò ïîãàíûé ðîò, êîòîðûé îòêðûâàþò íåêîòîðûå äåÿòåëè «çà áóãðîì», äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû äîñòè÷ü ñâîèõ ñèþìèíóòíûõ ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ öåëåé, ìû çàòêí¸ì ïðàâäèâîé äîêóìåíòàëüíîé èíôîðìàöèåé.

Â.Âîëîáóåâ: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, åù¸ îäèí âîïðîñ – î ðàáîòå ñðåäñòâ ìàññîâîé èíôîðìàöèè, îñîáåííî òåëåâèäåíèÿ.

Íà âñåõ íàøèõ ñîáðàíèÿõ âåòåðàíû ñòàâÿò âîïðîñû î òîì, ÷òîáû íàøè ñðåäñòâà ìàññîâîé èíôîðìàöèè áûëè áëèæå ê èñòîðè÷åñêîé ïàìÿòè, ïàòðèîòè÷åñêîìó âîñïèòàíèþ. Ó íàñ æå èíîãäà òàêèå âîò ðàçáîðêè «ïîñòåëüíîãî áåëüÿ», êàê ýòî ãîâîðÿò, «ãðÿçíîãî áåëüÿ», èäóò íà òåëåâèäåíèè, êîòîðûå íè óìó íè ñåðäöó íå íóæíû. Ýòî æå öåíòðàëüíûå êàíàëû – Ïåðâûé, âòîðîé. Êàê-òî íàäî ïîâëèÿòü íà ðàáîòó ýòèõ êàíàëîâ.

Ìû òîëüêî íà Âàñ â ýòîì ïëàíå âîçëàãàåì íàäåæäó. Õîòÿ ìû ñðàæàåìñÿ: ó íàñ òå ñðåäñòâà ìàññîâîé èíôîðìàöèè, êîòîðûå çàìûêàþòñÿ íà íàøåãî ãóáåðíàòîðà, ðàáîòàþò â ïðèíöèïå íîðìàëüíî. È íàøà ãàçåòà «Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðãñêèå âåäîìîñòè», è «Ïåòåðáóðãñêèé äíåâíèê» äîâîëüíî íîðìàëüíî ïóáëèêóþò òàêèå îáúåêòèâíûå ìàòåðèàëû, íà êîòîðûå ìîæíî îïèðàòüñÿ è ðàáîòàòü.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âû çíàåòå, ó ìåíÿ íà ýòîò ñ÷¸ò åñòü ñâî¸ ìíåíèå. Êàê ó íàñ â íàðîäå ãîâîðÿò: íà êàæäûé ðîòîê íå íàêèíåøü ïëàòîê. Ïîýòîìó ñàìîå ãëàâíîå, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, – ïðîòèâîïîñòàâèòü ëþáûì ïîïûòêàì ÷òî-òî èçâðàòèòü ïðàâäèâóþ èíôîðìàöèþ.

 ýòîé ñâÿçè ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî âàæíà ïîçèöèÿ íàøèõ âåòåðàíîâ, â òîì ÷èñëå ïðèñóòñòâóþùèõ çäåñü. Ïîòîìó ÷òî êîãäà ëþäè – ó÷àñòíèêè ñîáûòèé ãîâîðÿò ïðàâäó, ïðîòèâîïîñòàâèòü ýòîìó ïðàêòè÷åñêè íè÷åãî íåâîçìîæíî. Íî è ìû, ëþäè áîëåå ìîëîäûõ ïîêîëåíèé, òîæå äîëæíû ãðàìîòíî, àðãóìåíòèðîâàííî, ñâîåâðåìåííî è ïîëíîöåííî èçëàãàòü ñâîþ ïîçèöèþ, òîãäà áóäåò ïîíÿòíî, êàêîâà ðîëü òåõ, êòî ïûòàåòñÿ ïåðåèíà÷èòü èñòîðèþ.

Êàê ýòî íè ïîêàæåòñÿ ñòðàííûì – âû çíàåòå, ÿ âûñòóïàë ñîâñåì íåäàâíî ñ Ïîñëàíèåì, è áîëüøàÿ ÷àñòü ýòîãî Ïîñëàíèÿ ïîñâÿùåíà áûëà ïîääåðæêå ñåìåé ñ äåòüìè, – ïîòðÿñàþùå, ÿ íèêîãäà íå ìîã ýòîãî äàæå ñåáå ïðåäñòàâèòü: îêàçûâàåòñÿ, ïîÿâèëèñü òå [ëþäè] è ñåé÷àñ ðàñïðîñòðàíÿþò ñâî¸ ìíåíèå, ÷òî íå íàäî ãîñóäàðñòâó â òàêîì îáú¸ìå ïîääåðæèâàòü ñåìüè ñ äåòüìè. Ýòî óäèâèòåëüíî ïðîñòî, íî ýòî åñòü. Íàäî ïðîñòî íå çàïðåùàòü èì ãîâîðèòü, à íàäî ïîêàçàòü, ÷òî ýòî çà ëþäè – êàêèå-òî ìîðàëüíûå óðîäû íà ñàìîì äåëå.

Òî æå ñàìîå îòíîñèòñÿ è ê òîé òåìå, êîòîðóþ ìû ñåé÷àñ îáñóæäàåì, – ê ïðàâäå î âîéíå. Ìîæåò áûòü, íå ñòîèò çàïðåùàòü, «õâàòàòü è íå ïóùàòü», ïóñòü ãîâîðÿò, çàòî äóðü êàæäîãî âèäíà áóäåò. Íî åé, ýòîé äóðè, íàäî ïðîòèâîïîñòàâèòü àðãóìåíòèðîâàííóþ, ïðàâäèâóþ, ïîëíîöåííóþ èíôîðìàöèþ.

Â.Âîëîáóåâ: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, è ïîñëåäíåå: êàê îôèöåð â îòñòàâêå õîòåë áû ïîáëàãîäàðèòü Âàñ îò èìåíè âåòåðàíîâ âîåííîé ñëóæáû çà òó îãðîìíóþ ðàáîòó, êîòîðóþ Âû âåä¸òå ïî ïîâûøåíèþ îáîðîíîñïîñîáíîñòè íàøåãî ãîñóäàðñòâà. Ìû ñåé÷àñ âûøëè íà òîò óðîâåíü, ñ êîòîðûì ñ÷èòàþòñÿ âñå, òåì áîëåå íà âòîðîì ìåñòå óæå Ðîññèþ ÷èñëÿò. Ñïàñèáî Âàì.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñïàñèáî.

Ä.Ñàÿïèí: Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, çäðàâñòâóéòå!

Ìåíÿ çîâóò Äìèòðèé Ñàÿïèí, «Áåññìåðòíûé ïîëê», Ñàíêò-Ïåòåðáóðã.

Êàê óæå âûøå ãîâîðèëîñü, äîñòàòî÷íî íåïðîñòàÿ ðàáîòà â àðõèâàõ Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè ñ äîêóìåíòàìè.

Íà ïîñëåäíåì çàñåäàíèè ðîññèéñêîãî îðãêîìèòåòà «Ïîáåäà» Åëåíà Ïåòðîâíà Ìàëûøåâà Âàì ïðåçåíòîâàëà ïðîåêò «Áåç ñðîêà äàâíîñòè». Äàííûé ïðîåêò ïðèçâàí ðàñêðûòü òåìó èñòðåáëåíèÿ ìèðíîãî íàñåëåíèÿ íà îêêóïèðîâàííûõ òåððèòîðèÿõ âî âðåìÿ Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé.

Äàííàÿ òåìà äîñòàòî÷íî ñëîæíà êàê â ðàáîòå «â ïîëÿõ», òàê è â ðàáîòå â àðõèâàõ, ÷òî ïîäðàçóìåâàåò ïîä ñîáîé, ÷òî äîñòàòî÷íî ñëîæíî ïîëó÷èòü íåîáõîäèìûå äîêóìåíòû â àðõèâàõ, èñõîäÿ èç ïîëîæåíèé çàêîíîäàòåëüñòâà î ñåìåéíîé òàéíå, ëè÷íîé òàéíå ëèáî çàêîíîâ îá óâåêîâå÷èâàíèè ïàìÿòè ïîãèáøèõ â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå, îá óâåêîâå÷èâàíèè ïàìÿòè ïîáåäû ñîâåòñêîãî íàðîäà â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå.

Âñëåäñòâèå ýòîãî ïðîñèì Âàñ äàòü óêàçàíèå, ÷òîáû íàä òåìè íîðìàòèâíî-ïðàâîâûìè àêòàìè, êîòîðûå ìåøàþò ýòîìó, ïðîâåëè ðàáîòó. Òåì áîëåå äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû áîëåå ýôôåêòèâíî âûïîëíèòü ïîñòàâëåííóþ Âàìè â Ïîñëàíèè çàäà÷ó – ñîáðàòü è îòêðûòü âñþ èíôîðìàöèþ î Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíå, – ýòî äîñòàòî÷íî ýôôåêòèâíî áû ñðàáîòàëî.

Ñ íàøåé ñòîðîíû óæå ïîäãîòîâëåíû äîêóìåíòû è ìåðû, êîòîðûå ìû ãîòîâû ïðåäñòàâèòü â êîìèòåò, â êîìèññèþ ïî óâåêîâå÷èâàíèþ ïàìÿòè ïîãèáøèõ â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå. È ýòî ïîìîæåò äîñòàòî÷íî áûñòðî è ýôôåêòèâíî ðåøèòü è óïðîñòèòü òó ïðîáëåìó, êîòîðàÿ ñóùåñòâóåò.

Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: ß â öåëîì ñîãëàñåí.

Ýòî âîïðîñ òîíêèé, çäåñü ïðîñòî çàùèòà ïåðñîíàëüíûõ äàííûõ, êàêèõ-òî ñåìåéíûõ äàííûõ. Çíàåòå, æèçíü áûëà î÷åíü ñëîæíà è ìíîãîîáðàçíà. È ëþäè ÷àñòî, îñîáåííî â òåõ óñëîâèÿõ, âåëè ñåáÿ ïîä ãí¸òîì ýòèõ óñëîâèé.

Ïîýòîìó çäåñü íóæíî áûòü î÷åíü àêêóðàòíûìè, íî â öåëîì, êîíå÷íî, ýòà ðàáîòà äîëæíà áûòü ìàêñèìàëüíî ðàçáþðîêðà÷åíà. Ïîñòàðàåìñÿ âìåñòå ñ âàìè ïîðàáîòàòü íàä ýòèì.

Ä.Ñàÿïèí: Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Õàðèíîâ: Âÿ÷åñëàâ Õàðèíîâ, íàñòîÿòåëü Ñêîðáÿùåíñêîãî õðàìà íà Øïàëåðíîé óëèöå.

Äîðîãîé Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ñïàñèáî Âàì çà çàáîòó î ïîèñêîâèêàõ.

ß ïðåäñòàâëÿþ çäåñü ïîèñêîâîå äâèæåíèå. ×åòâåðòü âåêà ÿ çàíèìàþñü ïîèñêîâîé äåÿòåëüíîñòüþ, ÿ çàõîðîíèë áîëåå 70 òûñÿ÷ íàøèõ âîèíîâ, ÿ ïîñòðîèë, âîññòàíîâèë õðàìû, ïîñâÿù¸ííûå âîéíå, çàíèìàþñü ìóçåéíîé äåÿòåëüíîñòüþ, óâåêîâå÷åíèåì ïàìÿòè çàùèòíèêîâ Îòå÷åñòâà.

Êî ìíå ñòåêàåòñÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ î÷åíü ìíîãèõ ïîèñêîâèêîâ. Íàñ áåñïîêîèò íåèñïîëüçîâàíèå àðõèâíûõ äàííûõ ïðè õîçÿéñòâåííîé äåÿòåëüíîñòè. Õðåñòîìàòèéíûé ïðèìåð – ýòî 2-é êèëîìåòð Ïóëêîâñêîãî øîññå, ýòî âîèíñêèå çàõîðîíåíèÿ 282-å, 386-å, ýòî 2011 ãîä, êîãäà èõ ïàñïîðòèçèðóþò, íî íå âíîñÿò ïî÷åìó-òî â êàäàñòðîâóþ êíèãó, íå îáîçíà÷àþò âèçóàëüíî. Ïîòîì ïåðåäàþò çåìëþ â ÷àñòíûå ðóêè, ïîòîì ñòðîèòñÿ ðàçâÿçêà.  íîÿáðå îïÿòü âîçíèêàåò âîïðîñ, è ýòî î÷åíü ñåðü¸çíàÿ ïðîáëåìà.

Äðóãîé ïðèìåð.  Ïóøêèíñêîì ðàéîíå, Âåðõíåå Êóçüìèíî, ïðîåêòèðóåòñÿ æèëîé ìàññèâ. Òàì âîèíñêîå çàõîðîíåíèå. Ó íàñ íåò ñâåäåíèé, ÷òî ïðîåêòàíòû áåðóò â ðàñ÷¸ò ýòî çàõîðîíåíèå.

Àýðîäðîì Ðæåâêà, ýòî íåâûÿâëåííûé íàø àýðîäðîì Ñìîëüíîå, ýòî «âîçäóøíûé ìîñò» ñ «áîëüøîé çåìë¸é», ýòî âîîáùå ìåñòî ãåðîè÷åñêîå. Ó íàñ ñâåäåíèÿ î òîì, ÷òî òàì ëåæàò âîèíû 50-ãî áàòàëüîíà àýðîäðîìíîãî îáåñïå÷åíèÿ. Òàì ìû íå íàøëè äîêóìåíòîâ î ïåðåíîñå òåë ãåðîåâ Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà Øèøêàíÿ, Ïàøå÷íèêà è ë¸ò÷èêà Ïàâëîâà. Òàì äîëæíû íàøè âîèíû ëåæàòü. Çàñòðîéêà ïëàíèðóåòñÿ. Íåò ñâåäåíèé î òîì, ÷òî õîòÿò ïðèâëå÷ü àðõèâû è ñïåöèàëèñòîâ, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû ïðîñòî íå ðàçðóøèòü âîèíñêîå çàõîðîíåíèå.

Õîçÿéñòâåííàÿ äåÿòåëüíîñòü äðóãîãî ðîäà. 374-ÿ äèâèçèÿ, âîèíñêîå çàõîðîíåíèå â Êèðîâñêîì ðàéîíå Ëåíèíãðàäñêîé îáëàñòè. Êàðüåð, âîèíîâ ïîäíèìàþò è ïåðåíîñÿò. Âîèíñêèå çàõîðîíåíèÿ, ñîãëàñíî çàêîíó, íå ïåðåíîñÿòñÿ, îíè îñòàþòñÿ òàì. Ïåðåíîñ î÷åíü ÷àñòî ñîïðîâîæäàåòñÿ ïîòåðåé òåë. 380 ïåðåíåñëè, à ïÿòåðûõ íå íàøëè. Ãäå îíè? Âîçíèêàåò òàêàÿ äâóçíà÷íàÿ ñèòóàöèÿ, íåïîíÿòíàÿ.

Íå ñ÷èòàåòå ëè Âû, ÷òî íóæíî æ¸ñò÷å ðåãëàìåíòèðîâàòü õîçÿéñòâåííóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòü íà ìåñòàõ âåäåíèÿ áî¸â è ìåñòàõ çàõîðîíåíèÿ íàøèõ âîèíîâ?

Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âî-ïåðâûõ, ó íàñ íîðìàòèâíàÿ áàçà åñòü, íî îíà, êîíå÷íî, íåñîâåðøåííàÿ, è ñåé÷àñ êàê ðàç ìû ðàáîòàåì íàä ñîâåðøåíñòâîâàíèåì ýòîé íîðìàòèâíîé áàçû íà ôåäåðàëüíîì óðîâíå.

Âîò ÷òî, äóìàþ, ìîæíî áûëî áû ñäåëàòü â áóäóùåì äîïîëíèòåëüíî. Ó íàñ æå ñóùåñòâóåò ïðàâèëî: òàì, ãäå ïðåäïîëàãàåòñÿ íàõîæäåíèå êàêèõ-òî àðòåôàêòîâ, òàì íóæíî ñíà÷àëà ïðîâåñòè ðàáîòó è ïîëó÷èòü ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèå ðàçðåøåíèÿ àðõåîëîãè÷åñêèõ ñëóæá.

Íà ìåñòàõ áî¸â ìîæíî òî æå ñàìîå äåëàòü ñ çåìë¸é, ïîëó÷àÿ ñîîòâåòñòâóþùóþ èíôîðìàöèþ î òîì, ÷òî è êàê çäåñü ïðîèñõîäèëî, ÷òî è êàê çäåñü ìîæåò áûòü íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü ïðåäñòàâëåíî, èìåÿ â âèäó âîèíñêèå çàõîðîíåíèÿ. Âåäü â óñëîâèÿõ áîåâûõ äåéñòâèé, êîãäà îäíà ñòîðîíà íàñòóïàåò, äðóãàÿ íàñòóïàåò, òàì è çàõîðîíåíèÿ-òî âîçíèêàëè, êàê ìû ïîíèìàåì, ÷àñòî î÷åíü ñòèõèéíî, ñïîíòàííî. Ïîýòîìó ñíà÷àëà íàäî îáñëåäîâàòü ýòîò ðàéîí, ýòó çåìëþ, à ïîòîì óæå ïåðåäàâàòü â ñîáñòâåííîñòü äëÿ ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåé õîçÿéñòâåííîé äåÿòåëüíîñòè. Âîò ïî òàêîìó ïóòè, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, íàäî áóäåò ïîéòè.

Â.Õàðèíîâ: Åñòü ýêñïåðòû â ýòîé îáëàñòè, ëèøü áû ê íàì îáðàùàëèñü.

 ïðîäîëæåíèå òåìû àðõèâîâ: êàæäûé ïåðåäâèæíîé ïîëåâîé ãîñïèòàëü (ÏÏÃ) äîëæåí áûë ôèêñèðîâàòü ñâîè çàõîðîíåíèÿ, èõ áûëî îãðîìíîå êîëè÷åñòâî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Äà, Âû ïðàâû. Íàäî ïîðàáîòàòü ñ àðõèâàìè è âûðàáîòàòü ïîðÿäîê, õî÷ó åù¸ ðàç ïîâòîðèòü, ïðè êîòîðîì ïåðåä òåì, êàê çåìëþ ïåðåäàâàòü ïîä õîçÿéñòâåííóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòü, ñíà÷àëà ïðîâîäèòü îïðåäåë¸ííûå îáñëåäîâàíèÿ.

Â.Õàðèíîâ: Ñïàñèáî îãðîìíîå.

Í.Ôåîôàíîâà: Ôåîôàíîâà Íàòàëüÿ Ïåòðîâíà.

Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ÿ áû òîæå õîòåëà ïîãîâîðèòü î çàõîðîíåíèÿõ, â ÷àñòíîñòè òîëüêî îá îäíîì – ýòî çàõîðîíåíèå Ìèõàèëà Èëëàðèîíîâè÷à Êóòóçîâà â Êàçàíñêîì ñîáîðå.

Íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü ñèòóàöèÿ îáñòîèò ñëåäóþùèì îáðàçîì. Ýòî çàõîðîíåíèå íå èìååò îáùåãî ïàñïîðòà. ×àñòü óêðàøåíèé è óáðàíñòâà çàõîðîíåíèÿ îòíîñèòñÿ ê Ìóçåþ ðåëèãèè, â ÷àñòíîñòè çíàì¸íà, êîòîðûå áûëè äåìîíòèðîâàíû â 2017 ãîäó, ïîòîìó ÷òî îíè óæå èñòëåëè, è èç øåñòè ÷åòûðå óæå íå ïîääàþòñÿ ðåñòàâðàöèè, îíè áóäóò íà âå÷íîì õðàíåíèè â ìóçåå. ×àñòü ïàìÿòíèêà íàõîäèòñÿ â âåäåíèè ÊÃÈÎÏ. È, ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, Êàçàíñêèé ñîáîð ñëóæèò ëèòèè, åñòåñòâåííî, óõàæèâàåò çà ìîãèëîé, öâåòû ãîòîâèò è òàê äàëåå.

Ýòî óäèâèòåëüíûé ôàêò, íî ìîãèëà Êóòóçîâà èìååò ÷ðåçâû÷àéíîå çíà÷åíèå èìåííî êàê ïàìÿòíèê âîéíû, Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû. Íàâåðíîå, Âû, êàê ëåíèíãðàäñêèé øêîëüíèê, çíàåòå, ÷òî ýòî èíòåðåñíûé ôàêò, íî ïàìÿòíèêè ïîëêîâîäöàì íå óêðûâàëèñü â îòëè÷èå îò äðóãèõ ïàìÿòíèêîâ, êîòîðûå ïûòàëèñü êàê-òî âñ¸-òàêè âî âðåìÿ áëîêàäû çàùèòèòü, è, ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, ìîãèëà Êóòóçîâà áûëà òåì ìåñòîì, ãäå ïðèñÿãàëè áîéöû, ïåðåä òåì êàê îòïðàâèòüñÿ íà ôðîíò.

Ýòî öåëàÿ èñòîðèÿ. Ìíå òàê ïîâåçëî, ÷òî ìû ñ ïðîôåññîðîì Øêàðîâñêèì èññëåäîâàëè ýòîò âîïðîñ, è ïîëíîñòüþ âñå àðõèâû íàìè èçó÷åíû.

Ìû óæå äåëàëè ïîïûòêè, íî, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, îíè íå óâåí÷àëèñü óñïåõàìè, íî äàííîå çàõîðîíåíèå, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, – ìîæåò áûòü, ÿ îøèáàþñü, – äîëæíî áûòü ïîñòàâëåíî íà ó÷¸ò â Ìèíèñòåðñòâå îáîðîíû, è òîãäà ìîãóò áûòü âûäåëåíû öåëåâûå äåíüãè íà ðåñòàâðàöèþ ýòîãî çàõîðîíåíèÿ, íà ðåêîíñòðóêöèþ óáðàíñòâà. Ïîòîìó ÷òî çíàì¸íà æå íàäî ðåêîíñòðóèðîâàòü, îäíî çíàìÿ 500 òûñÿ÷ ñòîèò íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü.

Â.Ïóòèí: ×åñòíî ãîâîðÿ, äëÿ ìåíÿ ýòî ñîâåðøåííî íîâàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ.

Í.Ôåîôàíîâà: Âû çíàåòå, êîãäà ÿ çàíÿëàñü ýòèì âîïðîñîì, ÿ ñàìà áûëà óäèâëåíà: íåò ïàñïîðòà íà ýòî çàõîðîíåíèå, Ìèõàèëà Èëëàðèîíîâè÷à Êóòóçîâà. Òî åñòü ìû âñ¸ âðåìÿ ïðîâîäèì êàêèå-òî âñåðîññèéñêèå êîíêóðñû íà èñòîðè÷åñêèå èìåíà è òàê äàëåå, à ìîãèëà íà ñàìîì äåëå…

À íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü, êàê è ãîâîðèë îòåö Âÿ÷åñëàâ, âåäü íàøà ïîäëèííàÿ áëàãîäàðíîñòü – ýòî ìîãèëû, ýòî ïàìÿòü î íèõ, ïîíèìàåòå? È, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, òî, êàê ìû îòíîñèìñÿ è ïîìíèì íàøèõ âåòåðàíîâ, êàê ìû ïîñåùàåì èõ ìîãèëû, êàê ìû âîîáùå ñîäåðæèì ïàìÿòíèêè, ïîñâÿù¸ííûå Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå, – â ýòîì, êîíå÷íî, è åñòü íàø äîëã è îáÿçàííîñòü.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñïàñèáî, ÷òî Âû îáîçíà÷èëè ýòó òåìó. Ïîâòîðÿþ, äëÿ ìåíÿ ýòî àáñîëþòíî íîâàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ.

Í.Ôåîôàíîâà: ß Âàì ïåðåäàì êíèãó, ìîæåò, Âû ïîìîùíèêàì äàäèòå. Ýòî ñäåëàíî ïî àêàäåìè÷åñêîìó ïðèíöèïó, òàì åñòü âñå ïðèìå÷àíèÿ, âñå ññûëêè íà àðõèâû. È Âû çíàåòå, äàæå âî âðåìÿ Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû íå áûëî ñîâåðøåííî ñðåäñòâ, íî ìèíèìàëüíûìè ñðåäñòâàìè ñïåöèàëüíûì îáðàçîì áûëà óáðàíà ìîãèëà Êóòóçîâà.

Â.Ïóòèí: Õîðîøî, ÿ ïîíÿë, ñïàñèáî. Çàéì¸ìñÿ îáÿçàòåëüíî. Î÷åíü âàæíî, ñîãëàñåí ñ Âàìè.

Ïîæàëóéñòà, êòî-òî åù¸?

Í.Ëîìàãèí: Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷!

Ìåíÿ çîâóò Ëîìàãèí Íèêèòà, ÿ äîêòîð èñòîðè÷åñêèõ íàóê, ïðîôåññîð Åâðîïåéñêîãî óíèâåðñèòåòà, èñòîðèê áëîêàäû.

Ìû íàõîäèìñÿ â ïðåêðàñíîì ìóçåå.  ïðîøëîì ãîäó áûëî ïðèíÿòî î÷åíü âàæíîå ðåøåíèå âåðíóòü Ìóçåé îáîðîíû è áëîêàäû íà åãî èñòîðè÷åñêîå ìåñòî. Íî êîãäà âûðàáàòûâàëàñü êîíöåïöèÿ ðàçâèòèÿ ýòîãî ìóçåéíî-âûñòàâî÷íîãî êîìïëåêñà, ïðåäïîëàãàëîñü, ÷òî ñóùåñòâåííîé ÷àñòüþ åãî ñòàíåò Èíñòèòóò èçó÷åíèÿ èñòîðèè áëîêàäû.

Âîò òî, ÷òî ìû ñåãîäíÿ ñ Âàìè îáñóæäàëè, òî, ÷òî Âû ãîâîðèëè, ïîêàçûâàåò íåîáõîäèìîñòü ñèñòåìíîãî, ãëóáîêîãî èçó÷åíèÿ ðàçíûõ àñïåêòîâ èñòîðèè Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû, îáîðîíû è áëîêàäû ãîðîäà.

Ëåíèíãðàä, êàê ìû çíàåì, áûë è ìåñòîì ñàìîé æåðòâåííîé è ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîé âîéíû, è ìåñòîì èííîâàöèé â ñàìûõ ðàçíûõ ñôåðàõ. Ëåíèíãðàäñêàÿ áëîêàäà ÿâèëàñü òåì ôàêòîì, êîòîðûé ïîçâîëèë â ìåæäóíàðîäíîå ãóìàíèòàðíîå ïðàâî âíåñòè íîðìó, êîòîðàÿ çàïðåùàåò èñïîëüçîâàíèå ãîëîäà êàê ñðåäñòâà âåäåíèÿ âîéíû è òàê äàëåå.

Âìåñòå ñ êîëëåãàìè ìû â òå÷åíèå íåñêîëüêèõ ëåò â ñîñòàâå ðàáî÷åé ãðóïïû òàêîé ïðîîáðàç Èíñòèòóòà èñòîðèè îáîðîíû è áëîêàäû ñîçäàâàëè, ðàáîòàëè è â îòå÷åñòâåííûõ àðõèâàõ, è â çàðóáåæíûõ – àìåðèêàíñêèõ, íåìåöêèõ. È ó ìåíÿ, ÿ äóìàþ, îò èñòîðèêîâ, êîòîðûå çàíèìàþòñÿ èçó÷åíèåì áëîêàäû, ê Âàì ïðîñüáà – ïîääåðæàòü íà ãîñóäàðñòâåííîì óðîâíå ñîçäàíèå òàêîãî èíñòèòóòà, ñîõðàíèòü ëåíèíãðàäñêóþ øêîëó èñòîðèêîâ áëîêàäû.

Ìû ñ Âàìè çíàåì, ÷òî ïîñëå ðàñïàäà Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà ïðàêòè÷åñêè èñ÷åçëè òàêèå èíñòèòóòû. Ðàíüøå â ËÎÈÈ, Ëåíèíãðàäñêîì îòäåëåíèè Èíñòèòóòà èñòîðèè, ïîä ðóêîâîäñòâîì Âàëåíòèíà Ìèõàéëîâè÷à Êîâàëü÷óêà ðàáîòàëà ñîîòâåòñòâóþùàÿ ãðóïïà – å¸, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, íåò.  Èíñòèòóòå èñòîðèè ïàðòèè áûë ìåæâåäîìñòâåííûé ñîâåò ïî ñåâåðî-çàïàäó, êîòîðûé çàíèìàëñÿ èçó÷åíèåì âîéíû. Ñåé÷àñ ó íàñ âñ¸ îïèðàåòñÿ â îñíîâíîì íà èíèöèàòèâíûå èññëåäîâàíèÿ.

Ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî â óñëîâèÿõ òåõ «âîéí ïàìÿòè», î êîòîðûõ Âû ãîâîðèëè, íàì íóæåí ñèñòåìíûé îòâåò, è ÿ ïðîøó Âàøåé ïîääåðæêè.

Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: Âî-ïåðâûõ, ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ýòî î÷åíü âàæíî, è ýòî íàïðàâëåíèå îáÿçàòåëüíî íóæíî äåðæàòü è ðàçâèâàòü.

Äóìàþ, ÷òî íà ïåðâîì ýòàïå ìîæíî áûëî áû ñäåëàòü îáùåñòâåííóþ îðãàíèçàöèþ ïðè ìóçåå, à ìû îáåñïå÷èëè áû ãðàíò, ôèíàíñîâîå ñîïðîâîæäåíèå. È ïîòîì, ïî ìåðå ðàçâèòèÿ, ìîæíî áûëî áû ïåðåéòè è ê îðãàíèçàöèîííî-ïðàâîâîé ôîðìå äðóãîé, â òîì ÷èñëå èíñòèòóò ñîçäàòü.

Í.Ëîìàãèí: Ñïàñèáî áîëüøîå.

Å.Öóíàåâà: Äîáðûé äåíü!

Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, âñ¸ áîëüøå óíè÷òîæàþò ïàìÿòíèêîâ ñîâåòñêèõ âîèíîâ çà ãðàíèöåé. Ýòî ÷óäîâèùíî. Íî ñïðàâåäëèâîñòè ðàäè âîçíèêàåò âîïðîñ: à ïî÷åìó èíîñòðàíöû äîëæíû ñîõðàíÿòü ýòè ïàìÿòíèêè ñîâåòñêèì âîèíàì, åñëè ñ äåòñòâà èì âíóøàþò, ÷òî ýòî íå âîèí-îñâîáîäèòåëü, à îêêóïàíò? Ìîëîäûå óêðàèíöû âûðîñëè íà ñêàçêàõ î ãîëîäîìîðå, ïîëÿêè – íà ìèôàõ î òîì, êàê ðóññêèå è íåìöû ïîäåëèëè èõ ñòðàíó, ïðèáàëòû ñâîèõ äåäîâ, ñëóæèâøèõ â ÑÑ, íîñÿò íà ðóêàõ, âîîáùå ñ÷èòàÿ, ÷òî îíè çàùèòíèêè ðîäèíû. Òåìà âîéíû î÷åíü ïîëèòèçèðîâàíà, Âû îá ýòîì ñåãîäíÿ ãîâîðèëè è â Ïîñëàíèè óïîìèíàëè.

Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, òå îòâåòñòâåííûå îðãàíû, êîòîðûå äîëæíû ïðîäâèãàòü òåìó ðóññêîãî ìèðà íà Çàïàäå, çà ãðàíèöåé, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, íå âûïîëíÿþò ýòó ñâîþ çàäà÷ó. Ïîòîìó ÷òî ìû ñ âàìè âñå ïðåêðàñíî çíàåì î òîé äèêîé áóêâàëüíî ðåçîëþöèè ÅÑ, ãäå íàöèçì ïðèðàâíÿëè ê êîììóíèçìó. Íà ñàìîì äåëå íóæíî ñ ýòèì ÷òî-òî äåëàòü.

Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, èíîñòðàííûå îáùåñòâåííèêè, íàøè êîëëåãè, êîòîðûå ñîõðàíÿþò ýòó ïàìÿòü, ðàçäåëÿþò íàøè óáåæäåíèÿ, íå ïîëó÷àþò äîñòàòî÷íîé ïîìîùè. Ìû ýòî çíàåì îò íàøèõ êîëëåã-ïîèñêîâèêîâ, ñ êåì ìû ðàáîòàåì, îò ëþäåé, êîòîðûå îðãàíèçóþò øåñòâèå «Áåññìåðòíûé ïîëê» çà ãðàíèöåé.

Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, êàê äîíåñòè äî îòâåòñòâåííûõ âåäîìñòâ, ÷òî íóæíû íå òîëüêî íîòû ïðîòåñòà, íî è ðåàëüíûå äåëà?

Â.Ïóòèí: ß óæå îá ýòîì ãîâîðèë: áóäåì ñîçäàâàòü òàêîé àðõèâíûé öåíòð, ãäå áóäåì ïðåäñòàâëÿòü äîêóìåíòû è âèäåî- è ôîòîìàòåðèàëû, àðõèâíûå äîêóìåíòû â ñàìîì ïðÿìîì ñìûñëå ýòîãî ñëîâà, â øèðîêîì äîñòóïå îíè áóäóò íàõîäèòüñÿ.

Ó íàñ èõ äîñòàòî÷íî, âåäü, êîãäà Êðàñíàÿ Àðìèÿ âîçâðàùàëàñü èç Åâðîïû, ìíîãèå äîêóìåíòû îêàçàëèñü â Ìîñêâå, è ìû çíàåì, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèëî íàêàíóíå Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíû äîñòîâåðíî, äîêóìåíòàëüíî – íå òîëüêî ïî äíÿì, à èíîãäà äàæå ïî ÷àñàì – èç äèïëîìàòè÷åñêîé ïåðåïèñêè, èç ðàçëè÷íûõ äèïëîìàòè÷åñêèõ äîêóìåíòîâ è íîò, êîòîðûå ïîä ãðèôàìè «ñåêðåòíî» è «ñîâåðøåííî ñåêðåòíî» öèðêóëèðîâàëè ìåæäó ðàçëè÷íûìè ñòðàíàìè â Åâðîïå. Ïîýòîìó íàì íå ñîñòàâèò íèêàêîãî òðóäà âîññòàíîâèòü ðåàëèè ïðîèñõîäèâøèõ òîãäà ñîáûòèé. Ýòî è íóæíî äåëàòü.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ ýòîé èçâåñòíîé ðåçîëþöèè, òî äà, ñêëàäûâàåòñÿ âïå÷àòëåíèå, ÷òî ëþäè òî ëè ÷èòàòü íå óìåþò, òî ëè ïèñàòü íå óìåþò, òî ëè ãëàç ó íèõ íåò. À ñêîðåå âñåãî, ýòî ïðîèñõîäèò, êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë òîëüêî ÷òî, èñõîäÿ èç òåêóùåé ïîëèòè÷åñêîé êîíúþíêòóðû, äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû äîáèâàòüñÿ, èçâèíèòå çà ãðóáîå ñëîâî, êàêèõ-òî «õîðüêîâûõ» ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ öåëåé íà ìîìåíò, êîãäà ýòè ðåçîëþöèè ïðèíèìàþòñÿ, áåç âñÿêîé îãëÿäêè íà òî, ÷òî óæå ïðîèñõîäèëî â ìèðå, ÷òî ïðîèñõîäèò â ìèðå ñåé÷àñ. Íî ïðîòèâîïîñòàâèòü ýòîìó ìîæíî òîëüêî ïðàâäó.

Âàøà îöåíêà äåÿòåëüíîñòè ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèõ ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ ñòðóêòóð îò÷àñòè, ìîæåò áûòü, ïðàâèëüíàÿ, ñïðàâåäëèâàÿ, íî âñ¸-òàêè íå ñîâñåì. Äåëî âåäü â òîì, ÷òî êîãäà òàêàÿ ïðîïàãàíäà, î êîòîðîé Âû ñêàçàëè è êîòîðóþ Âû îñóæäàåòå, âûâåäåíà íà ãîñóäàðñòâåííûé óðîâåíü, òî çäåñü ÷òî íè ãîâîðè – òàì ýòî íå ïðîõîäèò, è âñ¸, çàêðûâàþò, è âñ¸. Äàæå ìû ôèêñèðîâàëè íåñêîëüêî ðàç: â èíòåðíåòå ðàñïðîñòðàíÿåì – áóì – ñàéò çàêðûâàþò îòòóäà, èç-çà áóãðà. Áóì – îïÿòü çàêðûâàþò. Òîëüêî ïîÿâëÿåòñÿ – çàêðûâàþò. Êëþ÷åâûå ñðåäñòâà ìàññîâîé èíôîðìàöèè íå ðàñïðîñòðàíÿþò îáúåêòèâíûå ñâåäåíèÿ, ýòî öåëåíàïðàâëåííàÿ ðàáîòà.

Ìû äîëæíû ïðîòèâîïîñòàâèòü ýòîìó ñâîþ öåëåíàïðàâëåííóþ ðàáîòó. Òàê è áóäåì äåëàòü. È êîãäà ýòî áóäåò â äîêóìåíòàõ âñ¸ ïîêàçàíî – à ìû ìîæåì ýòî ñäåëàòü, – êîíå÷íî, äî ëþäåé ýòî áóäåò äîõîäèòü.

Çäåñü ãîâîðèëè î ðàñïðîñòðàíåíèè èíôîðìàöèè ïî êîíêðåòíûì ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿì Êðàñíîé Àðìèè, ïî êîíêðåòíûì ýïèçîäàì âîéíû. Ìû ôèêñèðóåì áîëüøîå êîëè÷åñòâî òåõ, êòî èíòåðåñóåòñÿ ýòîé èíôîðìàöèåé. È ìû âèäèì, ÷òî êîãäà ÷åëîâåê çàõîäèò íà ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèé ñàéò, îí íå ïðîñòî ïðîëèñòûâàåò – îí òàì çàäåðæèâàåòñÿ íà 10, 15 ìèíóò, íà ïîë÷àñà. Âû çíàåòå, ÷òî âîçíèêàåò? Âîçíèêàåò æåëàíèå ó ëþäåé ðàçîáðàòüñÿ, ÷òî æå ïðîèñõîäèëî ñ åãî ïðåäêîì, ñ åãî ðîäñòâåííèêîì: ñ äåäîì, ñ îòöîì, äàæå ñ ïðàäåäîì – ÷òî ñ íèì ïðîèñõîäèëî â ýòîò ïåðèîä âðåìåíè. Ëþäè íà÷èíàþò èíòåðåñîâàòüñÿ äàëüøå, ãäå îí ñëóæèë, êàêîâà ñóäüáà ýòîãî ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿ, ãäå îí âîåâàë, ÷òî ñòàëî ñ ýòèì ïîäðàçäåëåíèåì äàëüøå, ñ åãî îäíîïîë÷àíàìè, ãäå îíè îêàçàëèñü â êîíöå âîéíû.

Òàêóþ ðàáîòó, êîòîðóþ Âû ïðîâîäèòå, íóæíî ïðîñòî ïðîäîëæàòü, à ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå îðãàíû äîëæíû è áóäóò îêàçûâàòü Âàì ïîääåðæêó.

Å.Öóíàåâà: Ñïàñèáî.

À.Êëèìîâ: Äîðîãîé íàø Ïðåçèäåíò è Âåðõîâíûé Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùèé!

Ïîçâîëüòå ìíå âûðàçèòü Âàì èñêðåííþþ áëàãîäàðíîñòü çà óêðåïëåíèå ìîùè, ñèëû íàøèõ Âîîðóæ¸ííûõ Ñèë, îñîáåííî çà ïîñëåäíåå äåñÿòèëåòèå.

Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, Âû ñóìåëè ïðåîäîëåòü âñå òðóäíîñòè â ðåøåíèè ýòîé ïðîáëåìû, êîòîðîé ñòðàäàëè íàøè Âîîðóæ¸ííûå Ñèëû. Âû îñíàñòèëè òàêèì îðóæèåì, êîòîðîãî íåò è äîëãèå ãîäû åù¸ íå áóäåò â àðìèÿõ ìèðà. Ñïàñèáî Âàì çà ýòî.

Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷, ïîçâîëüòå ìíå ïðîñèòü Âàñ ðåøèòü íåêîòîðûå ïðîáëåìû, ñâÿçàííûå ñ íàøåé Êîíñòèòóöèåé.

Â.Ïóòèí: Ñëóøàþ.

À.Êëèìîâ: Âû ñåé÷àñ ïðèñòóïèëè ê î÷åíü âàæíîé ðàáîòå ïî èçìåíåíèþ, äîïîëíåíèþ «çàêîíà æèçíè» íàøåãî íàðîäà. È î÷åíü õîòåëîñü áû â ïðåäëîæåííûé Âàìè ñïèñîê äîïîëíåíèé è èçìåíåíèé äîáàâèòü îäíó èëè ðåñòàâðèðîâàòü, óñîâåðøåíñòâîâàòü îäíó ñòàòüþ, êîòîðàÿ ãîâîðèò î ñðîêàõ ïðåáûâàíèÿ Ïðåçèäåíòà ó ðóëÿ ðóêîâîäñòâà ñòðàíîé.

Íàì, ñòàðøåìó ïîêîëåíèþ, õîòåëîñü áû, ÷òîáû â ýòîé ñòàòüå ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòü òðóäîâîé äåÿòåëüíîñòè ïî ðóêîâîäñòâó ñòðàíîé Ïðåçèäåíòà íå îãðàíè÷èâàëàñü êîíêðåòíûìè ñðîêàìè, à ÷òîáû íàðîä ïîòîì ðåøàë, ïðîäëèòü ðàáîòó Ïðåçèäåíòà èëè îñâîáîäèòü åãî, ïîáëàãîäàðèâ çà ñäåëàííîå. ß äóìàþ, ÷òî ýòî áóäåò ëó÷øå äëÿ ðåøåíèÿ âñåõ ïðîáëåì, îñîáåííî ïî óëó÷øåíèþ æèçíè íàøåãî íàðîäà.

Âû ðåøèëè îäíó çàäà÷ó – ïî óêðåïëåíèþ Âîîðóæ¸ííûõ Ñèë. Ñåé÷àñ ìîæíî ïðèñòóïèòü ê ðåøåíèþ âòîðîé çàäà÷è. Îïûò ó Âàñ îãðîìíûé. Ïîäóìàéòå, ïîæàëóéñòà, êàê ýòî ðåàëüíî ïðåòâîðèòü â æèçíü, äîáàâèâ ñòàòüþ â ýòîé íîâîé Êîíñòèòóöèè íàøåé ñòðàíû ïî óâåëè÷åíèþ ïðàêòè÷åñêîé äåÿòåëüíîñòè Ïðåçèäåíòà.

Íî åù¸ îäíà ïðîáëåìà ñåé÷àñ âîçíèêàåò, îíà êàñàåòñÿ âñåãî íàðîäà íàøåé ñòðàíû.  ïîñëåäíèå ãîäû âî ìíîãèõ ñòðàíàõ ìèðà ïðîòèâ íàñ âîçíèêëà ñâîÿ «ëèíèÿ æèçíè», âçàèìîîòíîøåíèé, îöåíêè ñäåëàííîãî è äîñòèãíóòîãî ïîä Âàøèì ðóêîâîäñòâîì íàøåé ñòðàíîé. Íàõàëüíî, ãðóáî, íåñïðàâåäëèâî îöåíèâàåòñÿ ìíîãîå, ÷åãî äîñòèãëà íàøà ñòðàíà çà ýòè ãîäû. Äàæå òå ñòðàíû, êîòîðûå ìû îñâîáîäèëè îò ôàøèçìà â ãîäû Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû, è òî ñåé÷àñ ìåíÿþò ñâîþ ïîçèöèþ, ñâîè âçàèìîîòíîøåíèÿ ñ íàìè.

Åñòü òàêîå ïðåäëîæåíèå – êàê Âû ïîñìîòðèòå íà ýòî? – ñîçäàòü â íàøåì ãîðîäå èíñòèòóò ïàìÿòè Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû, ÷òîáû íèãäå íå áûëî íèêàêèõ èçâðàùåíèé äåéñòâèòåëüíîé Ïîáåäû, êòî å¸ çàñëóæèë, êòî å¸ ïðèí¸ñ ìèðó. Ñòàðèêè óõîäÿò, íî ìíîãî ìîëîäûõ òàëàíòëèâûõ ðåáÿò, êàê ãîâîðèòñÿ, êîòîðûå ñìûñëÿò â ðåøåíèè ýòîé ïðîáëåìû è ïîìîãëè áû ÷åðåç ýòîò èíñòèòóò ïîâëèÿòü íà ñîçíàíèå íàðîäîâ ìèðà.

Ýòîò èíñòèòóò, ìíå äóìàåòñÿ, èìåííî çäåñü äîëæåí áûòü îñíîâàí, ïîòîìó ÷òî íàø ãîðîä ïåðåí¸ñ íåèìîâåðíî òðóäíûé ïåðèîä â æèçíè è äåÿòåëüíîñòè, âêëþ÷àÿ áëîêàäó, íî âûñòîÿë, ïîáåäèë, îêðåï è äîñòîèí, ÷òîáû ïðàâèëüíî ïîíèìàòü è îöåíèâàòü ñëîæèâøóþñÿ ñèòóàöèþ ñåãîäíÿ è ïåðèîäà Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû.

Èçâèíèòå çà äîëãîå âûñòóïëåíèå.

Ñïàñèáî Âàì.

Â.Ïóòèí: Íè÷åãî, Âû èìååòå ïðàâî ãîâîðèòü ñòîëüêî, ñêîëüêî ïîñ÷èòàåòå íóæíûì. Ìû ñ óäîâîëüñòâèåì è âíèìàòåëüíî Âàñ áóäåì ñëóøàòü âñåãäà.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ èíñòèòóòà – ìû çäåñü óæå îá ýòîì ãîâîðèëè – è âîîáùå êàêîãî-òî öåíòðà ïàìÿòè î Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíå, î Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå, î ïðàâäå, ñâÿçàííîé ñ ýòèì, – ìû, áåçóñëîâíî, áóäåì ñîçäàâàòü. È Âû ïðàâû, ìîæåò áûòü, îäèí èç öåíòðîâ, êîíå÷íî, äîëæåí áûòü â Ïåòåðáóðãå. Ýòî àáñîëþòíî îðãàíè÷íî, èìåÿ â âèäó òó óíèêàëüíóþ ðîëü, êîòîðóþ ñûãðàëà îáîðîíà Ëåíèíãðàäà è ïîâåäåíèå æèòåëåé áëîêàäíîãî ãîðîäà â Âåëèêîé Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå. Âû ïðàâû àáñîëþòíî, ïîëíîñòüþ ñ ýòèì ñîãëàñåí.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ ïåðâîé ÷àñòè òîãî, î ÷¸ì Âû ãîâîðèëè, òî ÿ õî÷ó Âàñ ïîáëàãîäàðèòü, ïîòîìó ÷òî â ýòîì ïðåäëîæåíèè çâó÷èò îöåíêà òîãî, ÷òî áûëî ñäåëàíî çà ìíîãèå ãîäû ðàáîòû. È íàäåþñü, ÷òî ýòî ñâÿçàíî íå òîëüêî ñî ñòðîèòåëüñòâîì Âîîðóæ¸ííûõ Ñèë, íî è ñ ýêîíîìèêîé, ñîöèàëüíîé ñôåðîé.

Âñïîìíèì, ÷òî â íà÷àëå 2000-õ è â àðìèè, è ïåíñèîíåðàì íå âûïëà÷èâàëè äåíåæíîå ñîäåðæàíèå è ïåíñèþ ìåñÿöàìè, à òî è ïî ïîëãîäà, íà íåêîòîðûõ ïðåäïðèÿòèÿõ ïî ïîëãîäà çàðïëàòó íå ïëàòèëè.

Ó íàñ ýêîíîìèêà âûðîñëà ïðàêòè÷åñêè â äâà ðàçà, è äîõîäû íàñåëåíèÿ ïîäðîñëè ñóùåñòâåííûõ îáðàçîì. Åñòü, ïðàâäà, è ñëîæíîñòè. Åñòü ïðîáëåìû, ñâÿçàííûå ñ òåì, ÷òî êîëåáàíèÿ ïðîèçîøëè â ïîñëåäíèå ãîäû, çà ïîñëåäíèå ïÿòü ëåò ðåàëüíûå äîõîäû çàìîðîçèëèñü. Ìû ýòî âñ¸ âèäèì è áóäåì íàä ýòèì ðàáîòàòü îáÿçàòåëüíî, è ìîè ïîñëåäíèå ïðåäëîæåíèÿ, èçëîæåííûå â Ïîñëàíèè, êàê ðàç íà ýòî è íàïðàâëåíû.

Ýòî, êîíå÷íî, äàëåêî íå âñ¸, ÷òî ìû ïëàíèðóåì äåëàòü, – ó íàñ îãðîìíûå ïëàíû ïî ðàçâèòèþ òàê íàçûâàåìûõ íàöèîíàëüíûõ ïðîåêòîâ, ïî äîñòèæåíèþ íàöèîíàëüíûõ öåëåé ðàçâèòèÿ. Ýòî ãåíåðàëüíûé ïëàí, êîòîðûé ìû äîëæíû ðåàëèçîâàòü.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ ñðîêîâ ïðåáûâàíèÿ ãëàâû ãîñóäàðñòâà ó âëàñòè – ÿ ïîíèìàþ òî, î ÷¸ì Âû ãîâîðèòå. Ñâÿçàíî ýòî ó ìíîãèõ íàøèõ ëþäåé ñ òðåâîãîé çà ñòàáèëüíîñòü â îáùåñòâå, çà ñòàáèëüíîñòü â ãîñóäàðñòâå – è çà âíåøíþþ ñòàáèëüíîñòü, è çà âíóòðåííþþ – ÿ ïðåêðàñíî ïîíèìàþ.

Âìåñòå ñ òåì î÷åíü òðåâîæíî, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, áûëî áû âåðíóòüñÿ â ñèòóàöèþ ñåðåäèíû 1980-õ ãîäîâ, êîãäà ðóêîâîäèòåëè ãîñóäàðñòâà îäèí çà îäíèì äî êîíöà ñâîèõ äíåé îñòàâàëèñü ó âëàñòè, óõîäèëè èç ýòîé âëàñòè, íå îáåñïå÷èâàÿ ïðè ýòîì íåîáõîäèìûõ óñëîâèé äëÿ òðàíñôîðìàöèè ýòîé âëàñòè.

Ïîýòîìó Âàì ñïàñèáî áîëüøîå, íî ÿ äóìàþ, ÷òî ëó÷øå ê òàêîé ñèòóàöèè, êàêàÿ áûëà â ñåðåäèíå 1980-õ ãîäîâ, íå âîçâðàùàòüñÿ.

Ñïàñèáî Âàì áîëüøîå.

Íî ìíå âñ¸ ðàâíî ýòî î÷åíü ïðèÿòíî, ïîòîìó ÷òî â ýòîì çâó÷èò îöåíêà ìîåé ðàáîòû. Ìîæåò áûòü, íå âñ¸ ïîëó÷àåòñÿ, íî è ÿ, è òå ëþäè, êîòîðûå ñî ìíîé ðàáîòàþò, äåëàåì âñ¸ äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû äîáèòüñÿ ìàêñèìàëüíîãî ðåçóëüòàòà äëÿ ñòðàíû è äëÿ íàøèõ ãðàæäàí, äëÿ íàøèõ ëþäåé.

À.Êëèìîâ: Ñïàñèáî, Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷.

Å.Ëåçèê: Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð Âëàäèìèðîâè÷!

Ïóòåøåñòâóÿ ïî ýêñïîçèöèè ìóçåÿ, õîòåëîñü Âàì ïîêàçàòü äîñòîèíñòâà ýêñïîçèöèè. Íî ñåé÷àñ, ìíå êàæåòñÿ, íàñòàëî âðåìÿ ïîáëàãîäàðèòü Âàñ, âî-ïåðâûõ, çà Âàø òðóä, òðóä Ïðåçèäåíòà, ãëàâû ãîñóäàðñòâà, – ýòî âñå ïîíèìàþò è âèäÿò, – è â ýòîé ñâÿçè çà òî, ÷òî Âû ïîìîãëè íàøåìó ìóçåþ ñòàòü ëó÷øå, èíòåðåñíåå, âûäåëèâ äëÿ ðàçâèòèÿ ýêñïîçèöèè ñðåäñòâà. Ñïàñèáî Âàì áîëüøîå çà ýòî, ïîòîìó ÷òî íà ñåãîäíÿøíèé äåíü íàø ìóçåé ñòàë íàèáîëåå òåõíè÷åñêè îñíàù¸ííûì âîîáùå, íàâåðíîå, â ñòðàíå, ïîñêîëüêó âîò òàêèå íåáîëüøèå ïëîùàäè ïîçâîëèëè íàì ñîñðåäîòî÷èòü çäåñü ìàêñèìóì ñàìûõ âûñîêèõ ìóçåéíûõ òåõíîëîãèé.

Ñåãîäíÿ áûëî ñêàçàíî î÷åíü ìíîãî âàæíîãî, î÷åíü ìíîãî òðåâîã áûëî âûñêàçàíî íàøèìè êîëëåãàìè. È â ïîääåðæêó ñêàçàííîãî ÿ õîòåëà áû Âàñ çàâåðèòü, ÷òî ìóçåé òîëüêî ðàñïðàâëÿåò êðûëüÿ. È äåéñòâèòåëüíî, ïîääåðæèâàÿ ñëîâà Íèêèòû Àíäðååâè÷à [Ëîìàãèíà], ïîääåðæèâàÿ ñëîâà íàøèõ óâàæàåìûõ âåòåðàíîâ, êîòîðûå òÿãîòåþò ê íàøåìó ìóçåþ, êîòîðûå ñ óäîâîëüñòâèåì ñ íàìè ðàáîòàþò, èìåííî çäåñü, íà áàçå ìóçåÿ, ìû ðàññ÷èòûâàåì ñîçäàòü öåíòð èçó÷åíèÿ íàñëåäèÿ áëîêàäû è áèòâû çà Ëåíèíãðàä, öåíòð ïîèñêîâîé ðàáîòû è áëàãîäàðÿ óñèëèÿì íàøèõ ïîèñêîâèêîâ ñòàòü ìàêñèìàëüíî èíòåðåñíûìè ìîëî䏿è.

Çäåñü ìîæíî áûëî áû íå òîëüêî ïîêàçûâàòü äîñòèæåíèÿ ïîèñêîâèêîâ, íî è ó÷èòü ïîèñêîâîìó äåëó, ÷òî î÷åíü âàæíî, ïîñêîëüêó ó íàñ åñòü òàêàÿ òåíåâàÿ ñòîðîíà âîïðîñà, êàê «÷¸ðíûå êîïàòåëè». Ìîëî䏿ü, âîñïèòàííàÿ ïîèñêîâèêàìè, íèêîãäà íå ïîéä¸ò ýòèì çàíèìàòüñÿ, îíà áóäåò äåëàòü ýòî íà áëàãî ðàçâèòèÿ è ïîíèìàíèÿ ñâîåé èñòîðèè.

È êîíå÷íî, çäåñü äîëæåí áûòü öåíòð âçàèìîäåéñòâèÿ íàøèõ âåòåðàíîâ ñ ìîëî䏿üþ, ñ ïîòîìêàìè. Íàâåðíîå, íàøåìó ìóçåþ äëÿ ýòîãî íóæíî ðàçâèâàòüñÿ î÷åíü àêòèâíî – è òåððèòîðèàëüíî, è ôèëèàëüíî, – ïîñêîëüêó, êîãäà âîçíèêëà áëàãîäàðÿ óñèëèÿì Àëåêñàíäðà Äìèòðèåâè÷à [Áåãëîâà] ýòà èäåÿ, ðàçâèâàòü ìóçåé íå òîëüêî â Ñîëÿíîì ãîðîäêå, íî è ïî ñòðàíå, âñÿ ñòðàíà îòêëèêíóëàñü. Ó íàñ åñòü êîíêðåòíûå ïðåäëîæåíèÿ. Äàæå íåáîëüøîé ïîñ¸ëîê Äåäîâè÷è Ïñêîâñêîé îáëàñòè, èç êîòîðîãî ïðèø¸ë ïàðòèçàíñêèé îáîç â ìàðòå 1942 ãîäà, âûñêàçàë ñâî¸ ïîæåëàíèå, íàø¸ë çäàíèå, ÷òîáû òàì âîçíèê ôèëèàë Ìóçåÿ îáîðîíû è áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà.

Ïîýòîìó ìû íà áîëüøîì ïóòè áëàãîäàðÿ ïîääåðæêå Àëåêñàíäðà Äìèòðèåâè÷à è Âàøåé ïîääåðæêå, è ìû íàäååìñÿ ñòàòü òàêèì öåíòðîì, êîòîðûé áóäåò èíñòðóìåíòîì â áîðüáå ïðîòèâ ëþáèòåëåé ïåðåâèðàòü íàøó èñòîðèþ.

Ñïàñèáî.

Â.Ïóòèí: ß õî÷ó ïîáëàãîäàðèòü Âàñ è âîîáùå âñïîìíèòü âñå ïîêîëåíèÿ ðàáîòíèêîâ ìóçåÿ – à ó íèõ, Âû ìíå ñàìè ðàññêàçûâàëè, áûëà òÿæ¸ëàÿ ñóäüáà, îñîáåííî ó ïåðâûõ ñîòðóäíèêîâ, êîòîðûå ñîçäàâàëè ýêñïîçèöèþ. Õî÷ó Âàñ ïîáëàãîäàðèòü, âñåõ Âàøèõ êîëëåã çà òó ðàáîòó, êîòîðóþ Âû äåëàåòå ïî ñîõðàíåíèþ ïàìÿòè î âîéíå, î áëîêàäå, î áëîêàäíèêàõ è çàùèòíèêàõ Îòå÷åñòâà. Õî÷ó âñåõ âàñ ïîáëàãîäàðèòü çà ýòó ðàáîòó.

À ê âåòåðàíàì õî÷ó îáðàòèòü ñëîâà îñîáîé áëàãîäàðíîñòè, âñåõ íàñ, íî îñîáåííî âåòåðàíîâ, ïîçäðàâèòü ñ ïðàçäíèêîì – ñ Äí¸ì ïðîðûâà áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà.

Ñïàñèáî âàì áîëüøîå.
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A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 23 2020, 21:37:29     :

http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/62646
Â.Ïóòèí: Óâàæàåìûé ãîñïîäèí Ïðåçèäåíò! Óâàæàåìûé ãîñïîäèí Ïðåìüåð-ìèíèñòð! Êîëëåãè, äðóçüÿ, äàìû è ãîñïîäà!

Ñåãîäíÿ íà ìåæäóíàðîäíîì ôîðóìå, ïîñâÿù¸ííîì ïàìÿòè æåðòâ Õîëîêîñòà, íàñ îáúåäèíèëà îáùàÿ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü, äîëã ïåðåä ïðîøëûì è ïåðåä áóäóùèì.

Ìû ñêîðáèì îáî âñåõ æåðòâàõ íàöèçìà, è â èõ ÷èñëå – øåñòü ìèëëèîíîâ åâðååâ, çàìó÷åííûõ â ãåòòî è êîíöëàãåðÿõ, çâåðñêè óáèòûõ â õîäå êàðàòåëüíûõ îïåðàöèé. Èç íèõ 40 ïðîöåíòîâ – ýòî ãðàæäàíå áûâøåãî Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà, ïîýòîìó Õîëîêîñò áûë è îñòàíåòñÿ äëÿ íàñ ãëóáîêîé ðàíîé, òðàãåäèåé, î êîòîðîé ìû áóäåì ïîìíèòü âñåãäà.

Ïåðåä ïîåçäêîé â Èåðóñàëèì ïîçíàêîìèëñÿ ñ ïîäëèííûìè äîêóìåíòàìè, îò÷¸òàìè îôèöåðîâ Êðàñíîé àðìèè ïîñëå îñâîáîæäåíèÿ Îñâåíöèìà. Äîëæåí âàì ñêàçàòü, óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè: ÷èòàòü ýòè âîåííûå ñâîäêè, äîêóìåíòû, ãäå â äåòàëÿõ ðàññêàçàíî, êàê áûë óñòðîåí ëàãåðü, êàê äåéñòâîâàëà ìàøèíà õëàäíîêðîâíîãî óíè÷òîæåíèÿ ëþäåé, î÷åíü ñëîæíî, íåâûíîñèìî.

Ìíîãèå èç íèõ íàïèñàíû îò ðóêè ñîëäàòàìè è îôèöåðàìè Êðàñíîé àðìèè íà âòîðîé, òðåòèé äåíü ïîñëå îñâîáîæäåíèÿ óçíèêîâ è ïåðåäàþò òîò øîê, êîòîðûé èñïûòàëè ñîëäàòû è îôèöåðû Êðàñíîé àðìèè îò óâèäåííîãî òàì, îò ñâèäåòåëüñòâ, êîòîðûå âûçûâàëè áîëü, íåãîäîâàíèå è ñîñòðàäàíèå.

Ìàðøàë Êðàñíîé àðìèè Êîíåâ, êîìàíäóþùèé òîãäà âîåííîé îïåðàöèåé ïî âçÿòèþ ãóñòîíàñåë¸ííîãî Ñèëåçñêîãî ïðîìûøëåííîãî ðàéîíà Ãåðìàíèè, èñïîëüçîâàë òàêòèêó ìàêñèìàëüíîãî ñïàñåíèÿ ìèðíûõ æèòåëåé è, ïîëó÷èâ äîíåñåíèå î òâîðèâøèõñÿ â Îñâåíöèìå çâåðñòâàõ, çàïðåòèë ñàì ñåáå äàæå âèäåòü ýòîò ëàãåðü. Ïîçæå îí íàïèñàë â ñâîèõ ìåìóàðàõ: áûë òîãäà íå âïðàâå ïîòåðÿòü äóøåâíûå ñèëû, äîïóñòèòü, ÷òîáû ñïðàâåäëèâîå ÷óâñòâî ìùåíèÿ íå îñëåïèëî åãî ïðè ïðîâåäåíèè âîåííûõ îïåðàöèé è íå âûçâàëî áû äîïîëíèòåëüíûõ ñòðàäàíèé è æåðòâ ñðåäè ìèðíîãî íàñåëåíèÿ Ãåðìàíèè.

27 ÿíâàðÿ èñïîëíèòñÿ 75 ëåò ñî äíÿ îñâîáîæäåíèÿ Îñâåíöèìà. Â ýòîì àäó, êóäà ñãîíÿëè ëþäåé èç ðàçíûõ ñòðàí äëÿ èñòÿçàíèé, ÷óäîâèùíûõ ýêñïåðèìåíòîâ è ìàññîâîãî èñòðåáëåíèÿ, ïîãèáëè ñîòíè è ñîòíè òûñÿ÷ ëþäåé ðàçíûõ íàöèîíàëüíîñòåé. Ñðåäè íèõ áîëåå ïîëîâèíû – ýòî åâðåè.

Ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ, ñîâåðø¸ííûå íàöèñòàìè, èõ îáäóìàííîå, ñïëàíèðîâàííîå, êàê îíè ãîâîðèëè, «îêîí÷àòåëüíîå ðåøåíèå åâðåéñêîãî âîïðîñà» – ýòî, óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè, îäíà èç ñàìûõ ÷¸ðíûõ è ïîçîðíûõ ñòðàíèö íîâåéøåé ìèðîâîé èñòîðèè.

Íî íå çàáóäåì è î òîì, ÷òî ó ýòîãî ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ áûëè è ñîó÷àñòíèêè, ïîñîáíèêè.  æåñòîêîñòè îíè çà÷àñòóþ ïðåâîñõîäèëè ñâîèõ õîçÿåâ. Ôàáðèêè ñìåðòè, êîíöëàãåðÿ îáñëóæèâàëè íå òîëüêî íàöèñòû, íî è èõ ïîñîáíèêè âî ìíîãèõ ñòðàíàõ Åâðîïû.

Íà îêêóïèðîâàííûõ òåððèòîðèÿõ Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà, ãäå îðóäîâàëè ýòè áàíäèòû, áûëî óáèòî íàèáîëüøåå êîëè÷åñòâî åâðååâ. Òàê, íà Óêðàèíå ïîãèáëî ïîðÿäêà 1,4 ìèëëèîíà åâðååâ.  Ëèòâå óíè÷òîæåíî 220 òûñÿ÷ ÷åëîâåê. Ýòî – îáðàùàþ íà ýòî âàøå âíèìàíèå, äîðîãèå äðóçüÿ, – ýòî 95 ïðîöåíòîâ äîâîåííîãî åâðåéñêîãî íàñåëåíèÿ ýòîé ñòðàíû.  Ëàòâèè – 77 òûñÿ÷. Õîëîêîñò ïåðåæèëè ëèøü íåñêîëüêî ñîòåí ëàòûøñêèõ åâðååâ.

Õîëîêîñò – ýòî öåëåíàïðàâëåííîå óíè÷òîæåíèå ëþäåé. Íî íàäî ïîìíèòü, ÷òî íàöèñòû ãîòîâèëè òàêóþ æå ó÷àñòü è ìíîãèì äðóãèì íàðîäàì: «íåäî÷åëîâåêàìè» áûëè îáúÿâëåíû è ðóññêèå, è áåëîðóñû, è óêðàèíöû, ïîëÿêè, ïðåäñòàâèòåëè ìíîãèõ äðóãèõ íàöèîíàëüíîñòåé. Èõ ðîäíàÿ çåìëÿ äîëæíà áûëà ñëóæèòü æèçíåííûì ïðîñòðàíñòâîì äëÿ íàöèñòîâ, îáåñïå÷èâ èì ñûòîå ñóùåñòâîâàíèå, à ñëàâÿíñêèì è äðóãèì íàðîäàì áûëà óãîòîâëåíà ó÷àñòü ëèáî áûòü óíè÷òîæåííûìè, ëèáî ñòàòü áåñïðàâíûìè ðàáàìè áåç ñâîåé êóëüòóðû, èñòîðè÷åñêîé ïàìÿòè, áåç ÿçûêà.

Òîãäà, â 1945-ì, êîíåö âàðâàðñêèì ïëàíàì ïîëîæèë ïðåæäå âñåãî ñîâåòñêèé íàðîä. Îí, êàê óæå áûëî çäåñü òîëüêî ÷òî ñêàçàíî, îòñòîÿë è ñâî¸ Îòå÷åñòâî, è ïðèí¸ñ îñâîáîæäåíèå îò íàöèçìà Åâðîïå. Ìû çàïëàòèëè çà ýòî òàêîé öåíîé, êîòîðàÿ íå ñíèëàñü ðàíüøå â ñàìûõ ñòðàøíûõ ñíàõ íè îäíîìó íàðîäó, – 27 ìèëëèîíîâ ïîãèáøèõ.

Ìû íèêîãäà ýòîãî íå çàáóäåì. Ïàìÿòü î Õîëîêîñòå ñòàíåò óðîêîì è ïðåäîñòåðåæåíèåì òîëüêî â òîì ñëó÷àå, åñëè îíà áóäåò ïîëíîé, áåç èçúÿòèé è óìîë÷àíèé. Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ñåãîäíÿ ïàìÿòü î âîéíå è å¸ óðîêè, íàñëåäèå âñ¸ ÷àùå ñòàíîâÿòñÿ îáúåêòîì ïîëèòè÷åñêîé ñèþìèíóòíîé, òåêóùåé êîíúþíêòóðû. Ýòî àáñîëþòíî íåäîïóñòèìî. À äîëã ñîâðåìåííûõ è áóäóùèõ ïîëèòèêîâ, ãîñóäàðñòâåííûõ è îáùåñòâåííûõ äåÿòåëåé – çàùèùàòü äîáðîå èìÿ æèâûõ è ïàâøèõ ãåðîåâ, ìèðíûõ æèòåëåé, æåðòâ íàöèñòîâ è èõ ïîñîáíèêîâ.

Äëÿ ýòîãî âàæíî èñïîëüçîâàòü âñå âîçìîæíîñòè: èíôîðìàöèîííûå, ïîëèòè÷åñêèå, êóëüòóðíûå, àâòîðèòåò è âëèÿíèå íàøèõ ñòðàí â ìèðå. Óâåðåí, ÷òî âñå, êòî ïðèñóòñòâóþò çäåñü, â ýòîì çàëå, íà ôîðóìå, ðàçäåëÿþò òàêèå îçàáî÷åííîñòè è ãîòîâû îòñòàèâàòü âìåñòå ñ íàìè ïðàâäó è ñïðàâåäëèâîñòü.

È ìû âñå íåñ¸ì îòâåòñòâåííîñòü çà òî, ÷òîáû íèêîãäà íå ïîâòîðÿòü ñòðàøíûå òðàãåäèè ïðîøåäøåé âîéíû, ÷òîáû áóäóùèå ïîêîëåíèÿ ïîìíèëè îá óæàñå Õîëîêîñòà è î ëàãåðÿõ ñìåðòè, î áëîêàäíîì Ëåíèíãðàäå, – Ïðåìüåð Íåòàíüÿõó òîëüêî ÷òî ñêàçàë, ÷òî ìû ñåãîäíÿ îòêðûëè ïàìÿòíèê çäåñü, â Èåðóñàëèìå, æåðòâàì áëîêàäû Ëåíèíãðàäà, – î Áàáüåì ßðå, î ñîææ¸ííîé Õàòûíè, î òîì, ÷òî íàäî áûòü áäèòåëüíûìè è íå ïðîïóñòèòü, íå ïðîãëÿäåòü, êîãäà ïîÿâëÿþòñÿ ïåðâûå ðîñòêè íåíàâèñòè, øîâèíèçìà, àíòèñåìèòèçìà, êîãäà èñïîäâîëü íà÷èíàþò ïîòàêàòü êñåíîôîáèè è äðóãèì ïðîÿâëåíèÿì ïîäîáíîãî ðîäà.

Çàáâåíèå ïðîøëîãî, ðàçîáù¸ííîñòü ïåðåä ëèöîì óãðîç ìîãóò îáåðíóòüñÿ ñòðàøíûìè ïîñëåäñòâèÿìè. Ó íàñ äîëæíî áûòü ìóæåñòâî íå òîëüêî ïðÿìî ñêàçàòü îá ýòîì, íî è ñäåëàòü âñ¸, ÷òîáû çàùèòèòü è îòñòîÿòü ìèð.

Ïðèìåð, íà ìîé âçãëÿä, ìîãóò è äîëæíû ïîäàòü ñòðàíû – îñíîâàòåëüíèöû Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé, ïÿòü äåðæàâ, êîòîðûå íåñóò îñîáóþ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü çà ñîõðàíåíèå öèâèëèçàöèè.

Ìû îáñóæäàëè ñ íåêîòîðûìè êîëëåãàìè è, íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïîíèìàþ, â öåëîì óâèäåëè ïîëîæèòåëüíóþ ðåàêöèþ, [âîçìîæíîñòü] ïðîâåñòè âñòðå÷ó ãëàâ ãîñóäàðñòâ – ïîñòîÿííûõ ÷ëåíîâ Ñîâåòà Áåçîïàñíîñòè ÎÎÍ: Ðîññèè, Êèòàÿ, ÑØÀ, Ôðàíöèè è Âåëèêîáðèòàíèè.  ëþáîé ñòðàíå, â ëþáîé òî÷êå ìèðà, ãäå ýòî áóäåò óäîáíî êîëëåãàì. Ðîññèÿ ãîòîâà ê òàêîìó ñåðü¸çíîìó ðàçãîâîðó. Ìû íàìåðåíû íå îòêëàäûâàÿ íàïðàâèòü ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèå ïîñëàíèÿ ëèäåðàì «ïÿò¸ðêè».

Ïåðåä íàìè ìíîãî çàäà÷. Îäíó èç íèõ ìû ñîâñåì íåäàâíî îáñóæäàëè â Áåðëèíå ïî èíèöèàòèâå êàíöëåðà Ôåäåðàòèâíîé Ðåñïóáëèêè ãîñïîæè Ìåðêåëü. Ýòî Ëèâèÿ. Íî è íàì ïðåäñòîèò â Ñîâåòå Áåçîïàñíîñòè åù¸ âåðíóòüñÿ ê ýòîìó âîïðîñó è ïðèíÿòü ñîîòâåòñòâóþùóþ ðåçîëþöèþ.

Íî ìíîãî è äðóãèõ ïðîáëåì. Ïðîâåäåíèå òàêîé âñòðå÷è èìåííî â ýòîì, 2020 ãîäó ñ÷èòàþ âàæíûì è ñèìâîëè÷íûì. Âåäü ìû îòìå÷àåì 75 ëåò îêîí÷àíèÿ Âòîðîé ìèðîâîé âîéíû è îñíîâàíèÿ Îðãàíèçàöèè Îáúåäèí¸ííûõ Íàöèé.

Ñàììèò ãîñóäàðñòâ, êîòîðûå âíåñëè ãëàâíûé âêëàä â ðàçãðîì àãðåññîðà, ñîçäàíèå ñèñòåìû ïîñëåâîåííîãî ìèðîóñòðîéñòâà, ñûãðàë áû îãðîìíóþ ðîëü â ïîèñêå êîëëåêòèâíûõ îòâåòîâ íà ñîâðåìåííûå âûçîâû è óãðîçû è, êîíå÷íî, ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàë áû íàøó îáùóþ âåðíîñòü äóõó ñîþçíè÷åñòâà, èñòîðè÷åñêîé ïàìÿòè, òåì âûñîêèì èäåàëàì è öåííîñòÿì, çà êîòîðûå ïëå÷îì ê ïëå÷ó ñðàæàëèñü íàøè ïðåäêè, íàøè äåäû, íàøè îòöû.

È â çàêëþ÷åíèå õî÷ó ïîáëàãîäàðèòü èçðàèëüñêèõ êîëëåã çà ò¸ïëûé, î÷åíü ðàäóøíûé ïðè¸ì çäåñü, â Èåðóñàëèìå, ïîæåëàòü ó÷àñòíèêàì êîíôåðåíöèè è, êîíå÷íî, âñåì ãðàæäàíàì Èçðàèëÿ ìèðà, áëàãîïîëó÷èÿ, âñåãî ñàìîãî äîáðîãî.

Áëàãîäàðþ âàñ.
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 20 2020, 21:09:15     :

https://www.mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/4043641
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 22 2021, 21:22:20     :

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vladimir-putin-real-lessons-75th-anniversary-world-war-ii-162982
Vladimir Putin: The Real Lessons of the 75th Anniversary of World War II

The Russian president offers a comprehensive assessment of the legacy of World War II, arguing that "Today, European politicians, and Polish leaders in particular, wish to sweep the Munich Betrayal under the carpet. The Munich Betrayal showed to the Soviet Union that the Western countries would deal with security issues without taking its interests into account."
by Vladimir Putin

Seventy-five years have passed since the end of the Great Patriotic War. Several generations have grown up over the years. The political map of the planet has changed. The Soviet Union that claimed an epic, crushing victory over Nazism and saved the entire world is gone. Besides, the events of that war have long become a distant memory, even for its participants. So why does Russia celebrate the ninth of May as the biggest holiday? Why does life almost come to a halt on June 22? And why does one feel a lump rise in their throat?
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They usually say that the war has left a deep imprint on every family's history. Behind these words, there are fates of millions of people, their sufferings and the pain of loss. Behind these words, there is also the pride, the truth and the memory.

For my parents, the war meant the terrible ordeals of the Siege of Leningrad where my two-year-old brother Vitya died. It was the place where my mother miraculously managed to survive. My father, despite being exempt from active duty, volunteered to defend his hometown. He made the same decision as millions of Soviet citizens. He fought at the Nevsky Pyatachok bridgehead and was severely wounded. And the more years pass, the more I feel the need to talk to my parents and learn more about the war period of their lives. However, I no longer have the opportunity to do so. This is the reason why I treasure in my heart those conversations I had with my father and mother on this subject, as well as the little emotion they showed.

People of my age and I believe it is important that our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren understand the torment and hardships their ancestors had to endure. They need to understand how their ancestors managed to persevere and win. Where did their sheer, unbending willpower that amazed and fascinated the whole world come from? Sure, they were defending their home, their children, loved ones and families. However, what they shared was the love for their homeland, their Motherland. That deep-seated, intimate feeling is fully reflected in the very essence of our nation and became one of the decisive factors in its heroic, sacrificial fight against the Nazis.
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I often wonder: What would today's generation do? How will it act when faced with a crisis situation? I see young doctors, nurses, sometimes fresh graduates that go to the "red zone" to save lives. I see our servicemen that fight international terrorism in the Northern Caucasus and fought to the bitter end in Syria. They are so young. Many servicemen who were part of the legendary, immortal 6th Paratroop Company were 19-20 years old. But all of them proved that they deserved to inherit the feat of the warriors of our homeland that defended it during the Great Patriotic War.
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This is why I am confident that one of the characteristic features of the peoples of Russia is to fulfill their duty without feeling sorry for themselves when the circumstances so demand. Such values as selflessness, patriotism, love for their home, their family and Motherland remain fundamental and integral to the Russian society to this day. These values are, to a large extent, the backbone of our country's sovereignty.

Nowadays, we have new traditions created by the people, such as the Immortal Regiment. This is the memory march that symbolizes our gratitude, as well as the living connection and the blood ties between generations. Millions of people come out to the streets carrying the photographs of their relatives that defended their Motherland and defeated the Nazis. This means that their lives, their ordeals and sacrifices, as well as the Victory that they left to us will never be forgotten.
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We have a responsibility to our past and our future to do our utmost to prevent those horrible tragedies from happening ever again. Hence, I was compelled to come out with an article about World War II and the Great Patriotic War. I have discussed this idea on several occasions with world leaders, and they have showed their support. At the summit of CIS leaders held at the end of last year, we all agreed on one thing: it is essential to pass on to future generations the memory of the fact that the Nazis were defeated first and foremost by the Soviet people and that representatives of all republics of the Soviet Union fought side by side together in that heroic battle, both on the frontlines and in the rear. During that summit, I also talked with my counterparts about the challenging pre-war period.

That conversation caused a stir in Europe and the world. It means that it is indeed high time that we revisited the lessons of the past. At the same time, there were many emotional outbursts, poorly disguised insecurities and loud accusations that followed. Acting out of habit, certain politicians rushed to claim that Russia was trying to rewrite history. However, they failed to rebut a single fact or refute a single argument. It is indeed difficult, if not impossible, to argue with the original documents that, by the way, can be found not only in the Russian, but also in the foreign archives.

Thus, there is a need to further examine the reasons that caused the world war and reflect on its complicated events, tragedies and victories, as well as its lessons, both for our country and the entire world. And like I said, it is crucial to rely exclusively on archive documents and contemporary evidence while avoiding any ideological or politicized speculations.

I would like to once again recall the obvious fact. The root causes of World War II mainly stem from the decisions made after World War I. The Treaty of Versailles became a symbol of grave injustice for Germany. It basically implied that the country was to be robbed, being forced to pay enormous reparations to the Western allies that drained its economy. French marshal Ferdinand Foch who served as the Supreme Allied Commander gave a prophetic description of that Treaty: "This is not peace. It is an armistice for twenty years."
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It was the national humiliation that became a fertile ground for radical sentiments of revenge in Germany. The Nazis skillfully played on people's emotions and built their propaganda promising to deliver Germany from the "legacy of Versailles" and restore the country to its former power while essentially pushing German people into war. Paradoxically, the Western states, particularly the United Kingdom and the United States, directly or indirectly contributed to this. Their financial and industrial enterprises actively invested in German factories and plants manufacturing military products. Besides, many people in the aristocracy and political establishment supported radical, far-right and nationalist movements that were on the rise both in Germany and in Europe.

The "Versailles world order" caused numerous implicit controversies and apparent conflicts. They revolved around the borders of new European states randomly set by the victors in World War I. That boundary delimitation was almost immediately followed by territorial disputes and mutual claims that turned into "time bombs".

One of the major outcomes of World War I was the establishment of the League of Nations. There were high expectations for that international organization to ensure lasting peace and collective security. It was a progressive idea that, if followed through consistently, could actually prevent the horrors of a global war from happening again.

However, the League of Nations dominated by the victorious powers of France and the United Kingdom proved ineffective and just got swamped by pointless discussions. The League of Nations and the European continent in general turned a deaf ear to the repeated calls of the Soviet Union to establish an equitable collective security system, and sign an Eastern European pact and a Pacific pact to prevent aggression. These proposals were disregarded.

The League of Nations also failed to prevent conflicts in various parts of the world, such as the attack of Italy on Ethiopia, the civil war in Spain, the Japanese aggression against China and the Anschluss of Austria. Furthermore, in case of the Munich Betrayal that, in addition to Hitler and Mussolini, involved British and French leaders, Czechoslovakia was taken apart with the full approval of the League of Nations. I would like to point out in this regard that, unlike many other European leaders of that time, Stalin did not disgrace himself by meeting with Hitler who was known among the Western nations as quite a reputable politician and was a welcome guest in the European capitals.

Poland was also engaged in the partition of Czechoslovakia along with Germany. They decided together in advance who would get what Czechoslovak territories. On September 20, 1938, Polish Ambassador to Germany Józef Lipski reported to Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland Józef Beck on the following assurances made by Hitler: "…in case of a conflict between Poland and Czechoslovakia over our interests in Teschen, the Reich would stand by Poland." The Nazi leader even prompted and advised that Poland started to act "only after the Germans occupy the Sudetes."
_________________
A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 22 2021, 21:49:05     :

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/fireside-chat-5


My fellow Americans:

It is nearly five months since we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. For the two years prior to that attack this country had been gearing itself up to a high level of production of munitions. And yet our war efforts had done little to dislocate the normal lives of most of us.

Since then we have dispatched strong forces of our Army and Navy, several hundred thousand of them, to bases and battle fronts thousands of miles from home. We have stepped up our war production on a scale that is testing our industrial power, our engineering genius, and our economic structure to the utmost. We have had no illusions about the fact that this is a tough job—and a long one.

American warships are now in combat in the North and South Atlantic, in the Arctic, in the Mediterranean, in the Indian Ocean, and in the North and South Pacific. American troops have taken stations in South America, Greenland, Iceland, the British Isles, the Near East, the Middle East and the Far East, the continent of Australia, and many islands of the Pacific. American war planes, manned by Americans, are flying in actual combat over all the continents and all the oceans.

On the European front the most important development of the past year has been without question the crushing counteroffensive on the part of the great armies of Russia against the powerful German Army. These Russian forces have destroyed and are destroying more armed power of our enemies—troops, planes, tanks, and guns—than all the other United Nations put together.


In the Mediterranean area, matters remain on the surface much as they were. But the situation there is receiving very careful attention.

Recently we received news of a change in government in what we used to know as the Republic of France—a name dear to the hearts of all lovers of liberty— a name and an institution which we hope will soon be restored to full dignity.

Throughout the Nazi occupation of France, we have hoped for the maintenance of a French Government which would strive to regain independence, to reestablish the principles of "Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity," and to restore the historic culture of France. Our policy has been consistent from the very beginning. However, we are now greatly concerned lest those who have recently come to power may seek to force the brave French people into submission to Nazi despotism.

The United Nations will take measures, if necessary, to prevent the use of French territory in any part of the world for military purposes by the Axis powers. The good people of France will readily understand that such action is essential for the United Nations to prevent assistance to the armies or navies or air forces of Germany, or Italy or Japan. The overwhelming majority of the French people understand that the fight of the United Nations is fundamentally their fight, that our victory means the restoration of a free and independent France—and the saving of France from the slavery which would be imposed upon her by her external enemies and by her internal traitors.

We know how the French people really feel. We know that a deep-seated determination to obstruct every step in the Axis plan extends from occupied France through Vichy France all the way to the people of their colonies in every ocean and on every continent.

Our planes are helping in the defense of French colonies today, and soon American Flying Fortresses will be fighting for the liberation of the darkened continent of Europe itself.

In all the occupied countries there are men and women, and even little children, who have never stopped fighting, never stopped resisting, never stopped proving to the Nazis that their so-called "New Order" will never be enforced upon free peoples.

In the German and Italian peoples themselves there is a growing conviction that the cause of Nazism and Fascism is hopeless—that their political and military leaders have led them along the bitter road which leads not to world conquest but to final defeat. They cannot fail to contrast the present frantic speeches of these leaders with their arrogant boastings of a year ago, and two years ago.

On the other side of the world, in the Far East, we have passed through a phase of serious losses.

We have inevitably lost control of a large portion of the Philippine Islands. But this whole Nation pays tribute to the Filipino and American officers and men who held out so long on Bataan Peninsula, to those grim and gallant fighters who still hold Corregidor, where the flag flies, and to the forces that are still striking effectively at the enemy on Mindanao and other islands.

The Malayan Peninsula and Singapore are in the hands of the enemy; the Netherlands East Indies are almost entirely occupied, though resistance there continues. Many other islands are in the possession of the Japanese. But there is good reason to believe that their southward advance has been checked. Australia, New Zealand, and much other territory will be bases for offensive action—and we are determined that the territory that has been lost will be regained.

The Japanese are pressing their northward advance against Burma with considerable power, driving toward India and China. They have been opposed with great bravery by small British and Chinese forces aided by American fliers.

The news in Burma tonight is not good. The Japanese may cut the Burma Road; but I want to say to the gallant people of China that no matter what advances the Japanese may make, ways will be found to deliver airplanes and munitions of war to the armies of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek.

We remember that the Chinese people were the first to stand up and fight against the aggressors in this war; and in the future a still unconquerable China will play its proper role in maintaining peace and prosperity, not only in eastern Asia but in the whole world.

For every advance that the Japanese have made since they started their frenzied career of conquest, they have had to pay a very heavy toll in warships, in transports, in planes, and in men. They are feeling the effects of those losses.

It is even reported from Japan that somebody has dropped bombs on Tokyo, and on other principal centers of Japanese war industries. If this be true, it is the first time in history that Japan has suffered such indignities.

Although the treacherous attack on Pearl Harbor was the immediate cause of our entry into the war, that event found the American people spiritually prepared for war on a world-wide scale. We went into this war fighting. We know what we are fighting for. We realize that the war has become what Hitler originally proclaimed it to be- a total war.

Not all of us can have the privilege of fighting our enemies in distant parts of the world.

Not all of us can have the privilege of working in a munitions factory or a shipyard, or on the farms or in oil fields or mines, producing the weapons or the raw materials that are needed by our armed forces.

But there is one front and one battle where everyone in the United States—every man, woman, and child—is in action, and will be privileged to remain in action throughout this war. That front is right here at home, in our daily lives, and in our daily tasks. Here at home everyone will have the privilege of making whatever self-denial is necessary, not only to supply our fighting men, but to keep the economic structure of our country fortified and secure during the war and after the war.

This will require, of course, the abandonment not only of luxuries but of many other creature comforts.

Every loyal American is aware of his individual responsibility. Whenever I hear anyone saying "The American people are complacent—they need to be aroused," I feel like asking him to come to Washington to read the mail that floods into the White House and into all departments of this Government. The one question that recurs through all these thousands of letters and messages is: "What more can I do to help my country in winning this war?

To build the factories, to buy the materials, to pay the labor, to provide the transportation, to equip and feed and house the soldiers, sailors, and marines, and to do all the thousands of things necessary in a war—all cost a lot of money, more money than has ever been spent by any Nation at any time in the long history of the world.

We are now spending, solely for war purposes, the sum of about $100,000,000 every day in the week. But, before this year is over, that almost unbelievable rate of expenditure will be doubled.

All of this money has to be spent—and spent quickly—if we are to produce within the time now available the enormous quantities of weapons of war which we need. But the spending of these tremendous sums presents grave danger of disaster to our national economy.

When your Government continues to spend these unprecedented sums for munitions month by month and year by year, that money goes into the pocketbooks and bank accounts of the people of the United States. At the same time raw materials and many manufactured goods are necessarily taken away from civilian use; and machinery and factories are being converted to war production.

You do not have to be a professor of mathematics or economics to see that if people with plenty of cash start bidding against each other for scarce goods, the price of those goods goes up.

Yesterday I submitted to the Congress of the United States a seven-point program of general principles which taken together could be called the national economic policy for attaining the great objective of keeping the cost of living down.

I repeat them now to you in substance:

First. We must, through heavier taxes, keep personal and corporate profits at a low reasonable rate.

Second. We must fix ceilings on prices and rents.

Third. We must stabilize wages.

Fourth. We must stabilize farm prices.

Fifth. We must put more billions into war bonds.

Sixth. We must ration all essential commodities which are scarce.

Seventh. We must discourage installment buying, and encourage paying off debts and mortgages.

I do not think it is necessary to repeat what I said yesterday to the Congress in discussing these general principles.

The important thing to remember is that each one of these points is dependent on the others if the whole program is to work.

Some people are already taking the position that every one of the seven points is correct except the one point which steps on their own individual toes. A few seem very willing to approve self-denial—on the part of their neighbors. The only effective course of action is a simultaneous attack on all of the factors which increase the cost of living, in one comprehensive, all-embracing program covering prices, and profits, and wages, and taxes and debts.

The blunt fact is that every single person in the United States is going to be affected by this program. Some of you will be affected more directly by one or two of these restrictive measures, but all of you will be affected indirectly by all of them.

Are you a businessman, or do you own stock in a business corporation? Well, your profits are going to be cut down to a reasonably low level by taxation. Your income will be subject to higher taxes. Indeed in these days, when every available dollar should go to the war effort, I do not think that any American citizen should have a net income in excess of $25,000 per year after payment of taxes.

Are you a retailer or a wholesaler or a manufacturer or a farmer or a landlord? Ceilings are being placed on the prices at which you can sell your goods or rent your property.

Do you work for wages? You will have to forego higher wages four your particular job for the duration of the war.

All of us are used to spending money for things that we want, things, however, which are not absolutely essential. We will all have to forego that kind of spending. Because we must put every dime and every dollar we can possibly spare out of our earnings into war bonds and stamps. Because the demands of the war effort require the rationing of goods of which there are not enough to go around. Because the stopping of purchases of nonessentials will release thousands of workers who are needed in the war effort.

As I told the Congress yesterday, "sacrifice" is not exactly the proper word with which to describe this program of self-denial. When, at the end of this great struggle, we shall have saved our freeway of life, we shall have made no "sacrifice."

The price for civilization must be paid in hard work and sorrow and blood. The price is not too high. If you doubt it, ask those millions who live today under the tyranny of Hitlerisms.

Ask the workers of France and Norway and the Netherlands, whipped to labor by the lash, whether the stabilization of wages is too great a "sacrifice."

Ask the farmers of Poland and Denmark, of Czechoslovakia and France, looted of their livestock, starving while their own crops are stolen from their land, ask them whether "parity" prices are too great a "sacrifice."

Ask the businessmen of Europe, whose enterprises have been stolen from their owners, whether the limitation of profits and personal incomes is too great a "sacrifice."

Ask the women and children whom Hitler is starving whether the rationing of tires and gasoline and sugar is too great a "sacrifice."

We do not have to ask them. They have already given us their agonized answers.

This great war effort must be carried through to its victorious conclusion by the indomitable will and determination of the people as one great whole.

It must not be impeded by the faint of heart.

It must not be impeded by those who put their own selfish . interests above the interests of the Nation.

It must not be impeded by those who pervert honest criticism into falsification of fact.

It must not be impeded by self-styled experts either in economics or military problems who know neither true figures nor geography itself.

It must not be impeded by a few bogus patriots who use the sacred freedom of the press to echo the sentiments of the propagandists in Tokyo and Berlin.

And, above all, it shall not be imperiled by the handful of noisy traitors- betrayers of America, betrayers of Christianity itself—would-be dictators who in their hearts and souls have yielded to Hitlerism and would have this Republic do likewise.

I shall use all of the executive power that I have to carry out the policy laid down. If it becomes necessary to ask for any additional legislation in order to attain our objective of preventing a spiral in the cost of living, I shall do so.

I know the American farmer, the American workman, and the American businessman. I know that they will gladly embrace this economy and equality of sacrifice- satisfied that it is necessary for the most vital and compelling motive in all their lives -winning through to victory.

Never in the memory of man has there been a war in which the courage, the endurance, and the loyalty of civilians played so vital a part.

Many thousands of civilians all over the world have been and are being killed or maimed by enemy action. Indeed, it was the fortitude of the common people of Britain under fire which enabled that island to stand and prevented Hitler from winning the war in 1940. The ruins of London and Coventry and other cities are today the proudest monuments to British heroism.

Our own American civilian population is now relatively safe from such disasters. And, to an ever increasing extent, our soldiers, sailors, and marines are fighting with great bravery and great skill on far distant fronts to make sure that we shall remain safe.

I should like to tell you one or two stories about the men we have in our armed forces:

There is, for example, Dr. Corydon M. Wassell. He was a missionary, well known for his good works in China. He is a simple, modest, retiring man, nearly sixty years old, but he entered the service of his country and was commissioned a Lieutenant Commander in the Navy.

Dr. Wassell was assigned to duty in Java caring for wounded officers and men of the cruisers Houston and Marblehead which had been in heavy action in the Java seas.

When the Japanese advanced across the island, it was decided to evacuate as many as possible of the wounded to Australia. But about twelve of the men were so badly wounded that they could not be moved. Dr. Wassell remained with these men, knowing that he would be captured by the enemy. But he decided to make a last desperate attempt to get the men out of Java. He asked each of them if he wished to take the chance, and every one agreed.

He first had to get the twelve men to the seacoast—fifty miles away. To do this, he had to improvise stretchers for the hazardous journey. The men were suffering severely, but Dr. Wassell kept them alive by his skill, and inspired them by his own courage.

And as the official report said, Dr. Wassell was "almost like a Christ-like shepherd devoted to his flock."

On the seacoast, he embarked the men on a little Dutch ship. They were bombed, they were machine-gunned by waves of Japanese planes. Dr. Wassell took virtual command of the ship, and by great skill avoided destruction, hiding in little bays and little inlets.

A few days later, Dr. Wassell and his small flock of wounded men reached Australia safely.

And today Dr. Wassell wears the Navy Cross.

Another story concerns a ship rather than an individual man.

You may remember the tragic sinking of the submarine, the U.S.S. Squalus, off the New England coast in the summer of 1939. Some of the crew were lost, but others were saved by the speed and the efficiency of the surface rescue crews. The Squalus itself was tediously raised from the bottom of the sea.

She was repaired and put back into commission, and eventually she Sailed again under a new name, the U.S.S. Sailfish. Today, she is a potent and effective unit of our submarine fleet in the Southwest Pacific.

The Sailfish has covered many thousands of miles in operations in those waters.

She has sunk a Japanese destroyer.

She has torpedoed a Japanese cruiser.

She has made torpedo hits—two of them—on a Japanese aircraft carrier.

Three of the enlisted men of our Navy who went down with the Squalus in 1939 and were rescued are today serving on the same ship, the U.S.S. Sailfish, in this war.

It seems to me that it is heartening to know that the Squalus, once given up as lost, rose from the depths to fight for our country in time of peril.

One more story that I heard only this morning:

This is a story of one of our Army Flying Fortresses operating in the western Pacific. The pilot of this plane is a modest young man, proud of his crew for one of the toughest fights a bomber has yet experienced.

The bomber departed from its base, as part of a flight of five bombers, to attack Japanese transports that were landing troops against us in the Philippines. When they had gone about halfway to their destination, one of the motors of this bomber went out of commission. The young pilot lost contact with the other bombers. The crew, however, got the motor working again and the plane proceeded on its mission alone.

By the time it arrived at its target the other four Flying Fortresses had already passed over, had dropped their bombs, and had stirred up the hornets' nest of Japanese "Zero" planes. Eighteen of these "Zero" fighters attacked our one Flying Fortress. Despite this mass attack, our plane proceeded on its mission, and dropped all of its bombs on six Japanese transports which were lined up along the docks.

As it turned back on its homeward journey a running fight between the bomber and the eighteen Japanese pursuit planes continued for 75 miles. Four pursuit planes of the Japs attacked simultaneously at each side. Four were shot down with the side guns. During this fight, the bomber's radio operator was killed, the engineer's right hand was shot off, and one gunner was crippled, leaving only one man available to operate both side guns. Although wounded in one hand, this gunner alternately manned both side guns, bringing down three more Japanese "Zero" planes. While this was going on, one engine on the American bomber was shot out, one gas tank was hit, the radio was shot off, and the oxygen system was entirely destroyed. Out of eleven control cables all but four were shot away. The rear landing wheel was blown off entirely, and the two front wheels were both shot flat.

The fight continued until the remaining Japanese pursuit ships exhausted their ammunition and turned back. With two engines gone and the plane practically out of control, the American bomber returned to its base after dark and made an emergency landing. The mission had been accomplished.

The name of that pilot is Captain Hewitt T. Wheless, of the United States Army. He comes from a place called Menard, Texas-with a population of 2,375. He has been awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. And I hope that he is listening.

These stories I have told you are not exceptional. They are typical examples of individual heroism and skill.

As we here at home contemplate our own duties, our own responsibilities, let us think and think hard of the example which is being set for us by our fighting men.

Our soldiers and sailors are members of well-disciplined units. But they are still and forever individuals—free individuals. They are farmers, and workers, businessmen, professional men, artists, clerks.

They are the United States of America.

That is why they fight.

We too are the United States of America.

That is why we must work and sacrifice.

It is for them. It is for us. It is for victory.
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A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
Zabougornov
Äîáðûé Àäìèíèñòðàòîð (èíîãäà)


: 06.03.2005
: 12000
: Îáåð-ãðóïïåí-äîöåíò, ñò. ðóêîâîäèòåëü ãðóïïû ñêîðîñòíûõ ñâèíãåðîâ, îí æå Çàáàøëåâè÷ Îöààò Ïîýëåâè÷

: , 22 2021, 18:18:04     :

Âîò òàê! ÑëàáÎ Áàéäåíó ñ Ïóòèíûì òÿãàòüñÿ.

Ïåðâûé çâîíîê, òàê ñêàçàòü. Ïîõîæå ÷òî, íà äàííóþ òåìó, Áàéäåí ìîæåò òîëüêî ãóíäîñèòü è ïîääàêèâàòü ñâîèì æóðíàëèñòàì, êîòîðûå åãî ðàñêóñèëè è ìàíèïóëèðóþò èì ïî çàêàçó òåõ êòî ïëàòèò.

https://www.mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/4647223
22.03.2112:56
Çàÿâëåíèå ÌÈÄ Ðîññèè

534-22-03-2021

en-GB1 ru-RU1



Ñ ñîæàëåíèåì êîíñòàòèðóåì, ÷òî àìåðèêàíñêàÿ ñòîðîíà íå ïîääåðæàëà ïðåäëîæåíèå Ïðåçèäåíòà Ðîññèè Â.Â.Ïóòèíà î ïðîâåäåíèè ðàçãîâîðà ñ Ïðåçèäåíòîì ÑØÀ Äæ.Áàéäåíîì 19 èëè 22 ìàðòà ñ.ã. â ôîðìàòå âèäåîêîíôåðåíöèè â îòêðûòîì ðåæèìå äëÿ îáñóæäåíèÿ íàêîïèâøèõñÿ äâóñòîðîííèõ ïðîáëåì, à òàêæå òåìàòèêè ñòðàòåãè÷åñêîé ñòàáèëüíîñòè.

Óïóùåíà åùå îäíà âîçìîæíîñòü äëÿ ïîèñêà âûõîäà èç îáðàçîâàâøåãîñÿ ïî âèíå Âàøèíãòîíà òóïèêà â ðîññèéñêî-àìåðèêàíñêèõ îòíîøåíèÿõ.

Îòâåòñòâåííîñòü çà ýòî öåëèêîì íà ÑØÀ.
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A la guerre comme a la guerre èëè âòîðàÿ ðåäàêöèÿ Çàáóãîðíîâà
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